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Mary
02-07-2011, 02:00 PM
The problem transactions are listed in the first post. The first post is the definitive record, it's being updated with additional facts as they become known.

I think this will summarize ...

One computer has used the usernames associated with the various real names in this thread.

One address has transacted with people under these names, arranging a sale or trade, collecting from the other party but not shipping the model in return. At times other addresses have also been used, but the one in Levittown has been used the most. All addresses are near each other on Long Island, even when they are in different communities.

The first name used, Jennifer Davis aka bayba, has an arrest record (available on the internet) for skimming money from an employer. I don't know what the resolution of the charges were. This work address was used in one or more hobby transactions under the name Jennifer Davis, so it seems clear this is the same Jennifer Davis.

The names seem to have actively come forth in order, one after the other, Jennifer Davis, then Michelle McGrath Davis, then Jenny Guzzi, then Jules Charon. There is some overlapping activity and it does muddy the waters that the names sometimes comment on each other and represent themselvs as interacting, as if they are separate people. And at least one name was set up on Blab long before it recently took on more activity, julescharon. But we know that on Blab the last 3 names were used from one computer. In addition to the one address in Levittown used by the names.

We've found photos posted on the web for all 4 names. Three of the photos have a passing resemblance of young and blonde (the other for Jules Charon is young and brunette,) but they could be different people. One person could have posted photos of herself under various names. Or, one person could have used the names of other real people who have photos on the web. The other real people may or may not know she is doing this.


Hope that helps.


Links to threads about these identities are below. These links are also in the op. For those who are confused, I'd ask that you take more time with the first post as it does tie things together, recounted chronologically for each identity. Yes the trail is somewhat tangled - but of course that would be the intention when someone is trying to deceive.


Jenny Guzzi was this linked thread's starting point (http://www.modelhorseblab.com/forums/showthread.php?107481-well-looks-like-I-was-scammed-for-the-1st-time....&highlight=McGrath), then other identities were associated with that one including julescharon - Shelly Brown's thread

Michelle McGrath Davis was this linked thread's (http://www.modelhorseblab.com/forums/showthread.php?105580) starting point, then Jennifer Davis was linked - the international transactions
related thread (http://www.modelhorseblab.com/forums/showthread.php?102503), the discussion was re-directed to the one above

First post: At least 5 threads from 2007 about Jennifer Davis. Up to 4 other threads about Michelle McGrath Davis, after Jennifer Davis was no longer communicating.

There is a good deal more on MHHR if you search on Michelle McGrath Davis and Jennifer Davis.



Just a remark - there is a bright, clear connection between these identities, if one ignores the meaningless details and window-dressing. Ignore the house, kangaroo shoes, etc. and so on, even the photos, and just stick to the plainest and most obvious facts of the transactions and the computer trail. Then it's easier to see and draw your own conclusions.

solticeart
02-07-2011, 02:26 PM
ok this is what Im getting from all this and to help to explain to people who may be a but lost..... they are all the same person.. the only photos I think and look to be real of the real person are the ones with the freaky blue eyed guy in them... the rest are fakes of other people.. I mean she sure cant say she is someone else then post photos of her real self.. what were trying to find in some of these fake photos is something to tie back to her original name.. which I think Is Jenn davis who was the 1st person I believe to join blab? is that right?... after she ripped people off because of whatever reason she didn't want to pay people back but wanted to join in to the hobby again so she faked a name ( or just changed it around some using her middle name michelle and maybe her married name mcgrath?) then after that persona ripped more people off... she comes up with another name ( jenny guzzi which sounds like is a real person she may very well know very well) which sounds like it didn't last long .. this one may just have been to rip off even more people? then at the same time she is using another name which she had already had on here ( jules charon) for maybe reason of signing on so no one knew it was them or for whatever reason.. so she goes back to the jules charon name to make people believe she really is a different person who has nothing to do with her other personas ....she says she lives in texas and says one of the her other name the jenny guzzi one has also ripped her off... but all 4 are caught in many lies that contradict who they are... I hope thats clear? lol ...ok question... does jules charon have any photos of herself on her facebook page or any personal photos at all? does anyone have a link to her page? I think its likely that the jennylee guzzi one is a real person who she used her name .. its alot easier to use a fake name that is someone you know of. so you don't forget it ( what would be really interesting is if someone would call on the phone this real jenny Guzzi and see if
1. involved in the hobby at all and
2. does she know of any of the other names?
my bet is.. she isn't and knows nothing about the hobby and does know jenn davis... my bet is jenn Davis has or had a horse there at one time.. Id love to hear what she has to say about her...and I bet she would love to know her name is being used and used bad to rip off people......anyways... as for the kangaroo picture its probably not her but a sister or neighbor or even a friend... because in it she has dark hair and looks to be in her 20's not late 30's... the age a sister may be... and she does refer to a sister so she very well may have one . just one who doest know anything about her Hobby matters... I really hoped we could see a address on one of the houses in the background but you cant so darn it..lol was worth the try...
one other thought.. I wonder if nay of theses personas also has accounts on fallen leaves.. and could be ripping off people or has ripped off people there that don't have account here... should maybe someone maybe tell shallon about this thread? I can if its ok.. let me know... I haven't been on there in while so I have no idea but I do remember that michelle mcgrath was on there... hmm.. I think I'll do a search for all of them there and see if I can find anymore photos she might have posted or other info she may have let out.. I am pretty sure there is a thread about bad transactions for her there too.. if im remembering right... but we may find more people who have been ripped off by some of theses names here...

solticeart
02-07-2011, 02:28 PM
rolf.. you said it so much better than i did mary. lol Im shouldn't have even tried.. lol you must have been writing at the same time I was..

Mary
02-07-2011, 02:35 PM
Okay, let's see if I have this straight:

Jenn Davis (I do remember Bayba) had a sterling reputation, had some medical and personal problems and ended up disappearing thus ripping some folks off for some $$$ models paid for but never provided. Right?Based on the first post, there were at least 5 complaints in TTB about her. Apparently the hobby didn't put it together for her. As has been posted in this thread by those who knew her, she appears to have been likable and made friends, so I think that makes people feel it isn't necessary to check up on her. But I think you have a correct synopsis as most people who knew of her understood it.


Michelle sold $$$ models she didn't have, had some medical problems but has been slowly making good on those models paid for but not provided by way of sweet Sara who is selling her horses and remitting payments to those owed. Right?Said she had medical problems, yes. People who came forward in the Blab thread are on the reimbursement program. A search of MHHR shows there are more international hobbyists who had troubles with her some time ago who have not come forward here on Blab. I am told there are language barriers for at least some of them. I am not aware there is any effort to reimburse them. (I did try to send a message to them to come forward here.)



Jules, who is not in a transaction with anyone, has been fighting publically with what may be her alter ego, Jenny, who she has paid for $$$ models that have not been provided. Right?Apparently so. julescharon has only recently emerged as a consistent Blab poster, although her id was registered in 2005. She pm'd me saying she had taken a break and is back.



And any or all of these may be the same person. Right?See my summary thread above, if that helps distill the first post information. That should be enough for most people to draw their own conclusions. :)


Pretty good rundown, Sherrill! :grin

john
02-07-2011, 03:04 PM
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_ofKWBvj7zcc/TVAdvFoDclI/AAAAAAAAJN8/k0G93_OcMI0/csi-logo%5B1%5D.jpg

:heartbeat LOVE IT. :roflmao

irvinearts
02-07-2011, 03:05 PM
:exactlyMary/Sherrill. Which basically adds up to the same MO for each 'persona' then - post for a while, gain friends, have enough good transactions to balance the bad, then disappear due to health/issues on a guilty note leaving a 'relative' to sort it out, whilst also having another to keep track feedback and timeline wise.....whom could easily go down the same route......urghhh..... :upset

$$$ wise, which hasn't been discussed, it would be good to try and collate exactly how much is outstanding. Trouble is so much time elaspsing between deals. It's almost (to me) like a perpetual loan, but with no interest. And that is (to me) what makes it criminal.

HorseChick
02-07-2011, 03:21 PM
Im so freaken lost! Someone hand me map so I can find my way back!



I'm so lost I think I must have smoked some of that grass. The purple kind even.

reggieqh
02-07-2011, 03:28 PM
Thank you to all who did either Detective work on this or Summized this whole crazy mess. I read a lot of this to my son as a warning to what people do on the Internet & he was amazed. So sorry for those that had to go through all this. :hugg

Amanda
02-07-2011, 05:07 PM
I'm so lost I think I must have smoked some of that grass. The purple kind even.

The purple kind is the best kind :hubba....:roflmao.

pitbullmom
02-07-2011, 06:02 PM
The purple kind is the best kind :hubba....:roflmao.

I told you guys! don't underestimate the purple!

great summary Mary. :clap It *would* be interesting to try and contact the "real" Jenny...

bronzino
02-07-2011, 09:07 PM
I'd like to thank Charlotte for supplying one last piece of information: MMD used the Levittown address that was also used by Jules Charon, Jennifer Davis and JennyLee Guzzi.

So now we have an indication that all four IDs were using the same residential address for correspondence or packages.

Kristi Hale
02-07-2011, 09:09 PM
I'm so lost I think I must have smoked some of that grass. The purple kind even.
Is that the kind that makes you think you're wearing pink kangaroos on your feet?

Drakkarstudios
02-07-2011, 09:33 PM
I'd like to thank Charlotte for supplying one last piece of information: MMD used the Levittown address that was also used by Jules Charon, Jennifer Davis and JennyLee Guzzi.

So now we have an indication that all four IDs were using the same residential address for correspondence or packages.

Yeah! Glad I could actually help. I shoud have cleaned out my email a long time ago and I would have seen it before. It didn't ring for me cause my transaction actually worked out. Right after that is when Sara started helping or I noticed the thread at least.
I just wish we hadn't all been duped by her and didn't feel betrayed. I thought she was just going through a bad time and felt bad for her. I also thought Jules was a genuine person, but now I just have that whole 'who do you really know' feeling about the internet. Not completely, but it's nagging on me.

tannutuva
02-07-2011, 10:32 PM
This all just sounds so unbelievably far-fetched (I don't doubt it's true about the 4 identities, etc.). All the transactions I've been involved with have been handled very honestly and grown-up-like, even when there's no detailed reference info on Blab or MHHR and I'm spending more than issue prices on resins. I have yet to see my name on either as well. I guess there's a leap of faith and a risk of that purchase price with a resale (for the buyer), but I've been lucky to have done business with nice people. I guess I might get burned on something sooner or later, all the more reason to keep up with my favorite artists' releases! :)

Margie Johnson

Beethovens7th
02-07-2011, 10:48 PM
Wow!! Phew! That is the lllooongesttt thread i have ever read in one sitting! Okay, someone (Blabber) posted that this gal has a facebook ID Chestnut Appaloosa. She gave me an email addy: chestnutappaloosa@gmail.com to send her samples of my art as she started a thread; a request for artists/commissions. She never responded and i didn't ask how she liked my art as i didn't want to appear "pushy".

Thank you to fellow Blabber solticeart for bringing this thread to my attention and thank you to all of you who are thorough/hard working:grouphug and looking out for the rest of us!

MustangGina
02-08-2011, 10:09 AM
WOW. :thud I can't BELIEVE you guys were having a party and didn't invite me! :haha No dog in the fight but GREAT detective work! :bow You guys rock. I remember Jen (Bayba). I offered to take Elvis for her and board him in Upstate with relatives, but she had already sold him. Never heard anything else about him. Jules I didn't pay much attention to honestly. Seemed nice. I never ever made the connection. Looking at the house, I can say that that is more than likely not a house in SC or GA (my little area of the South). I'm not familiar with much of NY (just Rochester and Buffalo (Lockport, Genesio, and Livonia specifically)) so it could be on Long Island. Anywho, nothing to add, just WOW.

And, no, I'm not an alias for anyone else. Just me! :lol Kim and Carra....and well, a lot of Blab can vouch that I am real! I will claim Blab Mafia ties....but we can't discuss that......

anniemare
02-08-2011, 10:26 AM
I went to Vegas with Gina, and she has picked seafood out of my hair in Kentucky. She is real.

RivnRo
02-08-2011, 10:34 AM
Ya know...everyone seems to be using Carra as their reference of existence..

Perhaps alllll of *you* are Carra..

airen
02-08-2011, 10:38 AM
OMG, too funny! I will say, now i am scare of every newbie introduction. Sad that we all have to live with paranoia because of some troll.

Inrun
02-08-2011, 10:39 AM
At this point i'm certain that Shauna is a hallucination. A unicorn loving, epic hallucination.

camaro88lover
02-08-2011, 10:41 AM
At this point i'm certain that Shauna is a hallucination. A unicorn loving, epic hallucination.

Who has an uncanny nack at thread derailing....she's gotta be a gypsy!

MustangGina
02-08-2011, 10:43 AM
I went to Vegas with Gina, and she has picked seafood out of my hair in Kentucky. She is real.

Carra has even met Vince (the hubby) and Jeff (my cousin). Hard to be someone else when your cousin is telling embarrassing stories about you! :lmao

I am FLOORED at the extent someone will go to cheat other people out of money. The whole address thing is.....WOW. I'd have gotten a post office box in a town 20 minutes away if I was going to do anything like this. The IP addresses are a good give away. The detective work here....you guys seriously went above and beyond getting all this together. Definately CHECK REFERENCES. With Jenn, it wouldn't have mattered. I think most of us would have vouched for it right at the point it all went south. And really, you don't "know" someone until you've spent a lot of time with that person and even then, things can go wrong.

MustangGina
02-08-2011, 10:45 AM
Ya know...everyone seems to be using Carra as their reference of existence..

Perhaps alllll of *you* are Carra..

Carra is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma! :haha She is also a Pirate so therefore she has my sword! :pirate

PolarVrtX
02-08-2011, 10:46 AM
Scary, to say the least! I definitely have that eerie "what is really real" feeling :uh I don't like how close to home (location wise) it all is either! And great, now I'm going to doubt everyone with a PO box :lol

pitbullmom
02-08-2011, 10:48 AM
And great, now I'm going to doubt everyone with a PO box :lol

um, Hello! :lol no kidding!

LaughingStockStables
02-08-2011, 10:48 AM
Ya know...everyone seems to be using Carra as their reference of existence..

Perhaps alllll of *you* are Carra..

HAHA...well...Carra has seen me in real life too...a long long time ago... :yes

Inrun
02-08-2011, 10:50 AM
Who has an uncanny nack at thread derailing....she's gotta be a gypsy!

Hmm. A hallucinagenic gypsy. Tsk... Madam Shauna of the Unicorns, i'm surprised at you. Derailing threads under the pretense of living in Alberta.

RivnRo
02-08-2011, 10:57 AM
Pegasus Sandra you of all people should know that

Hmm now I'm hankering for a gypsy cob Pegasus thingy...

RAYVIN...

RivnRo
02-08-2011, 10:59 AM
And gang... if we could avoid pointing out the mistakes that would be great Kay? We really don't need anyone reading this thread and learning better ways to dup us!!

It's like when fox news was pointing outwit the failed bombing attempt failed... There are always crazies taking notes

Inrun
02-08-2011, 10:59 AM
Pegacorn :P We'll split half way.

Maybe you're a faerie.

ravensgate
02-08-2011, 11:34 AM
And gang... if we could avoid pointing out the mistakes that would be great Kay? We really don't need anyone reading this thread and learning better ways to dup us!!

It's like when fox news was pointing outwit the failed bombing attempt failed... There are always crazies taking notes

Yeah, I remember they had on the news once how burglars were breaking into houses with screw drivers. And SHOWED HOW TO DO IT on the news. Idjits.

anniemare
02-08-2011, 11:41 AM
I just know lots of folks is all - LOL! And by "know" I mean have met in person. And either argued with or caused trouble with - LOL!

Tifns
02-08-2011, 11:48 AM
Yeah, I remember they had on the news once how burglars were breaking into houses with screw drivers. And SHOWED HOW TO DO IT on the news. Idjits.

Leaves me speechless at times... :ever There was a big drug bust down here a while ago and they were interviewing one of the special ops guys. So of course he had that black mask on to hide his identity. What does the news go and do? PUTS HIS FULL NAME below him... :doh RivnRo said it well theres always someone takeing notes!

anniemare
02-08-2011, 11:53 AM
Plus, have any of you seen me and Gina? She is over a foot taller than me - LOL!

muggyscugglemeyer
02-08-2011, 11:53 AM
There are always crazies taking notes

:hello

MustangGina
02-08-2011, 01:06 PM
Plus, have any of you seen me and Gina? She is over a foot taller than me - LOL!

There is video evidence that we are two separate people. Please see 3:25 of this video.....

http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoRestoMod#p/u/17/usfemIIoQec

See? Told ya!!! :haha

yofi
02-08-2011, 01:24 PM
Carra has even met Vince (the hubby) and Jeff (my cousin). Hard to be someone else when your cousin is telling embarrassing stories about you! :lmao

I am FLOORED at the extent someone will go to cheat other people out of money. The whole address thing is.....WOW. I'd have gotten a post office box in a town 20 minutes away if I was going to do anything like this. The IP addresses are a good give away. The detective work here....you guys seriously went above and beyond getting all this together. Definately CHECK REFERENCES. With Jenn, it wouldn't have mattered. I think most of us would have vouched for it right at the point it all went south. And really, you don't "know" someone until you've spent a lot of time with that person and even then, things can go wrong.

I will say, the cheating people out of money thing and the extent she went to in order to do it is most interesting to me. It appears that, at several points in time, she has tried to make amends and work to pay people back, but rather than 'fess up and go about it as herself, and do things the right way, she has another identity do it for her. So it seems as if she wants to work things out, but just doesn't know the right way (or simply can't do the right way, for any number of reasons) to do it.

Beethovens7th
02-08-2011, 01:30 PM
Carra is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma! :haha She is also a Pirate so therefore she has my sword! :pirate

AARRGHH!! :pirate A couple of Pirates here physically know me-Spookhorse01 otherwise known as "THE Shannon" :bow (since i'm just "the other Shannon") and Highadventure!!

:hubba not sayin' they will claim it, though! :toothy

mumtaz
02-08-2011, 01:37 PM
I will say, the cheating people out of money thing and the extent she went to in order to do it is most interesting to me. It appears that, at several points in time, she has tried to make amends and work to pay people back, but rather than 'fess up and go about it as herself, and do things the right way, she has another identity do it for her. So it seems as if she wants to work things out, but just doesn't know the right way (or simply can't do the right way, for any number of reasons) to do it.

I do think that's part of it, but the fact that she interacted with one of her personae by claiming to have been frauded makes me wonder if this isn't largely a game to her. Ripping off hobby people for a few hundred dollars is peanuts compared to the $49,000 she was taken to court for. And if she was trying to avoid being caught, why associate her JC persona with the JG one? It's odd.

Mary
02-08-2011, 01:56 PM
I will say, the cheating people out of money thing and the extent she went to in order to do it is most interesting to me. It appears that, at several points in time, she has tried to make amends and work to pay people back, but rather than 'fess up and go about it as herself, and do things the right way, she has another identity do it for her. So it seems as if she wants to work things out, but just doesn't know the right way (or simply can't do the right way, for any number of reasons) to do it.It is true that from time to time there is an effort to 'make things right' for someone. And even to have another identity step in to do it on behalf of a 'SIL' or 'sister' or other family tie. Without the hobbyist ever knowing that the two identities are being operated from one computer.

This is one of the most interesting aspects of this, to me. Why bother? I can think of several possibilities, all to do with keeping the game going, rather than searching for a better way -

- It slows down the public reporting of a bad transaction. Who wants to red-light someone who says they are ill if a relative is trying to make it right on their behalf?

- It bolsters the credibility of the helper that is trying to resolve a problem. How much slower is everyone to have worries about someone who is trying to straighten out a problem for another hobbyist?

- It muddies the waters, considerably. We've many posts in various threads explaining that Jennifer or Michelle is helping to pay someone back. The public concern is lessened, and when a new complaint comes forth readers don't always remember who is messing up transactions and who is helping fix them.

But maybe the real reason is that there is an element of a game in all this, a profitable one. Maybe it's just fun to have someone upset and still dangling on her lead.

I also note in the timeline Liz has laid out in the first post that the arrest of Jennifer Davis for taking $49,000 from her employer through purchases for herself happened either just before or at the same time as the earliest hobby complaints that I'm aware of. So, whatever came of the arrest, if the charges were true then she just lost a resource she had been using - her employer's money. If this hobby became a new target about that time then she may have needed to be able to keep funds flowing indefinitely, not just a few one-off deals. She needed to keep new names coming as the old ones became tarnished in the public eye, however long it took for that to happen each time.

Those are my thoughts. Purely speculating, though, can't know for sure. I'm cynical, I guess, based on my own life experience with people who decide to depend on ill-gotten resources.

shastaharley
02-08-2011, 02:11 PM
My personal opinion, after reading this thread and searching out information in other places, is that she started out with the intention of ripping people off and when her real name got hot she switched to another name in order to continue ripping people off. If you do some research each time people start to post that she has ripped them off another new name pops up claiming she has also been ripped off by that person and then that name goes on to give their hard luck story and starts selling (sometimes even models that were known to previously belong to Jennifer Davis). With each new name she uses there is a hard luck story. This is what bothers me even more than the model part, the hard luck, get everyone feeling sorry for me stories. There are a lot of very caring and generous people in this hobby who have been known to jump to the aid of another hobbyist in need. Jennifer Davis was the recipient of this generousity and probably used the gifts as more selling fodder. Jules Charon was making us feel sorry for her and no doubt had she not been caught out people would have started trying to help her out. This makes me very paranoid, I will admit that. I very much hope this doesn't change our basic desire to help one another but I for one will certainly be much more careful about it in the future.
Oh yeah, and I have a PO Box but I am real. Many hobbiests have met me (which I think is a better way of checking people out than lights at this point) such as Stacy Becker, Corrie McDermott, Robin Briscoe, Lindy Pinkham, and others. Maybe we should start an I Am Real thread! Unfortunately that might not help those Canadian people (not pointing fingers at Shauna) as they are in a world of their own:guffaw

DraytonWoods
02-08-2011, 02:27 PM
Yeah, seriously: the thing that pisses me off the most about this (which says a lot) is that I actually cared about bayba and her situation. Really sucks.

I'm on another board that has fakers on occasion, and it just really sucks that people put that kind of energy into something like that. Here it's worse, because we're generally a community of hobbyists that uses our real names online.

RivnRo
02-08-2011, 02:43 PM
Know what bothers me? I would have entered into a deal with her without checking because she was my "friend" on here.
I keep thinking to myself see.. never deal with someone you don't know.. and everytime I remind myself yeah but you would have felt you "knew" her.
Idiot trusting Canadian... who hasn't been ripped off enough already to learn a lesson.

Drakkarstudios
02-08-2011, 02:45 PM
Plus, have any of you seen me and Gina? She is over a foot taller than me - LOL!

Now, now...it's more like a foot and a half isn't it? Geez already the lying has started...lol

smushybanana
02-08-2011, 02:49 PM
Maybe we should start an I Am Real thread!

Haha. Someone should definitely start a "I am real" thread after this!

Mary
02-08-2011, 02:50 PM
I think that one person with multiple identities intending to defraud is unusual ... but it's not unusual at all to buy from redlighted sellers.

It is no one's fault that they were trusting or had language barriers. But JD and MMD both had posted red lights going back a long time, and MMD had red lights for at least 2 Europeans on MHHR with the same complaint from before the first transaction reported on Blab ever happened. People bought from JD & MMD and lost money even though there were public warnings that other people had already lost money with them.

I think that because we care so passionately about That Special Model Horse, or tack or medallion or whatever it is, sometimes a hobbyist is too ready to talk themselves into taking a chance or just plunging in without checking. Reference checks alone would stop problems happening after the first one or two were reported. As it is there are people working under their own identity who are reported over and over and it seems there is always someone ready to deal with them anyway.

Of course we'll all be wary of new identities from the one bad apple we know about. But imo far more bad transactions will be avoided if we take red lights seriously and are ready to walk away when the warning signs are up, do that terribly hard thing = wait, and keep our money for the next green-lighted seller.

And btw, committing to the transaction faster doesn't make it safer. :) It seems when people find That Model at the very good price we sometimes can't commit fast enough. We can always tell someone "I'm committing to buy as soon as I am satisfied with a reference check - if all is well I'll pay within the hour."

Mary
02-08-2011, 02:53 PM
p.s. Please hold off starting a "I am Real" thread on Blab. I don't want to have something that could be misleading. I know of no way to truly validate online identities.

Hobbyists will be much better off if they CHECK REFERENCES and be ready to WALK AWAY if warnings are posted. :)

fatvole
02-08-2011, 02:53 PM
Here's my take on doing biz with hobby people I don't know/have never heard of -- basically, do they show? Whether live or photo? Are they active and involved? Google their names and 'model horse' -- are show results (like NAN) coming up that show their names? I of course know that some collectors don't show, but most of the A-game major players, who I would be the first to take seriously, do. Have I heard their name a lot, or has someone who I trust and show with heard of them? Go over to their regional lists (and ask to sub if the archives are private) -- are they busy over with their own gang? I am certainly vocal over on Region 2, which in and of itself is a super non-shrinking-violet list with stuff going on every day -- one simple inquiry would have me rushing over and going "what?"

If it's taking me more than five minutes to start really finding someone, and yet they purport to be selling a really high-end or super showable horse, I take pause. And consequently, I've never ever been burned. It's common sense.

Keren
02-08-2011, 02:56 PM
Not everyone is a member of MHHR. I personally did not join because at that point (and as far as I know, still), one of the mods was a person who had taken me for a lot of money, and tried to take 2 other British hobbyists as well. So it did not sit well with me that there was someone in a position of authority on that board who was willing to engage in fraud. I mean, if you have a bad rep, what better place to be than in a position to launder posts about yourself?

So for me, *MHHR* has a tarnished reputation. I've heard other people express similar reservations - which really throws the 'trust' question wide open.

Keren

RivnRo
02-08-2011, 02:59 PM
And I have been burned by people with great reputations .. Neither do anymore I just got lucky to get in before it all went to poop on a popcicle stick

PolarVrtX
02-08-2011, 03:00 PM
I've seen cases of well-known hobbiests (at least within their own circles) who live show, or even host a show, being red-lighted. Times change, reputations change. I think the best advice is Mary's... just don't deal with red-lighted people, especially if it sounds too good to be true.

anniemare
02-08-2011, 03:10 PM
Now, now...it's more like a foot and a half isn't it? Geez already the lying has started...lol

I said OVER a foot. Which would encompass a foot and a half. LOL!

RivnRo
02-08-2011, 03:12 PM
I said OVER a foot. Which would encompass a foot and a half. LOL!

Depends on the grass...

Mary
02-08-2011, 03:24 PM
I've seen cases of well-known hobbiests (at least within their own circles) who live show, or even host a show, being red-lighted. Times change, reputations change. I think the best advice is Mary's... just don't deal with red-lighted people, especially if it sounds too good to be true.Sometimes people do go through a bad patch, and then things get better. Look at dates. How long ago were the reds? How long an unbroken string of greens does the seller have? What has been shared about what is going on with them?

But mostly, if you are taking any kind of a chance - Can you afford it if you never see that sum of money again?

What happens to your bills? Your model purchases? If it's $20, you might make a different decision than if it's $200, and of course you'll be even more cautious for bigger and bigger sums. Be cynical - there is no way to know if you are being fair to the other party, but the first priority is your own situation, not theirs.



One of the things that has also struck me about all the identities is that they were friendly, nice, charming, well-spoken and intelligent. They won friends easily. People were very ready to give MMD the benefit of the doubt even in the face of abundant evidence that there was a problem - even more evidence if they searched MHHR, which had more transactions than were reported on Blab. People felt they knew JD even though they never met her in person or knew anything other than what she chose to share about herself. People are very ready to trust and identify with people who seem to be at least a little like themselves.

I am so very sorry, but some of the nicest people are not nice people. If only you could tell who is not honest by their manner or their looks - but sadly, you can't.

When I was in my 20's I moved to NYC on a job transfer from Texas, all by myself, and some of my relatives were worried about what I would run into in the big wicked city. But my siblings reassured them that I was not likely to be taken in by anyone, I could take care of myself. Nonetheless - if I had more time I could tell you a really funny story about how I was conned by a delightful, charming couple right in front of my own residence in NYC. Only $25, but you really can't tell by looking/sounding ... :lol

NatalieK
02-08-2011, 03:24 PM
Ya know...everyone seems to be using Carra as their reference of existence..

Perhaps alllll of *you* are Carra..

Carra's like the Stig.

I am Carra.

Intothesunstudio
02-08-2011, 03:28 PM
It's awful to say, but I think this whole situation is EXACTLY why I mostly buy from people i have purchased from before. I get leery buying from people I do not know. I do check references here and on MHHR, but I usually end up only dealing with people I know of.

I'd hate to see people stop being supportive and generous toward other hobbyists and once again I'm careful about that as well. I've helped out others when I could and selfishly decided to help people I have met in person. The internet is starting to crawl with all sorts of scams.

I think this is why I really never wanted to give internet dating 100% of my time and effort. People are liars in real life, I didn't want to put my heart on the line to find out someone isn't who they are claiming online.

I remember all of these different screen names of Jennifer's but I never paid too much attention to any of them. None of them really ended up in the social group or threads I participated in.

anniemare
02-08-2011, 03:29 PM
Carra's like the Stig.

I am Carra.

No, I AM The Stig.

NatalieK
02-08-2011, 03:30 PM
No, I AM The Stig.

Which, in turn, means I am Carra.

Mary
02-08-2011, 03:33 PM
I'd hate to see people stop being supportive and generous toward other hobbyists and once again I'm careful about that as well. I've helped out others when I could and selfishly decided to help people I have met in person. The internet is starting to crawl with all sorts of scams.
I think someone trying to rehabilitate a damaged reputation can start with small sells, in the $20 range. It's easier to take a chance at that level. Get some greens, work back up. I also don't want to see people who had an episode of 'life' frozen out forever. But if they make good, publicize that, and rebuild gradually, I see a way forward. The flip side is that if someone is repeatedly leaving buyers in the lurch then it's best if they can't sell into the hobby, based on those red lights.

PolarVrtX
02-08-2011, 03:36 PM
When I was in my 20's I moved to NYC on a job transfer from Texas, all by myself, and some of my relatives were worried about what I would run into in the big wicked city. But my siblings reassured them that I was not likely to be taken in by anyone, I could take care of myself. Nonetheless - if I had more time I could tell you a really funny story about how I was conned by a delightful, charming couple right in front of my own residence in NYC. Only $25, but you really can't tell by looking/sounding ... :lol

My father always taught me not to give money to anybody (you don't know) and I always feel terrible telling people "no" after getting their sob story, and my friends have given me a hard time for being so uncaring. But, I can't tell you the number of people who have come up to me who have "just had their wallet stolen" and need money for a train/subway ticket. I really feel guilty telling them I can't help, but I know that 99% of the time they are just scammers and give that story to hundreds of people a day. You hear now and then about these beggers that are actually making $80,000 a year :lol

indefinitely_jaded
02-08-2011, 03:37 PM
The heightened paranoia we're all going to experience now is really going to suck for newcomers. I can think of two scenarios where someone "unknown" would be selling rare/desirable models, in the OF world: 1) Youth shower who won at BF once, but didn't keep up with the hobby wants to unload a prize model or two later on (who's going to dig through years' worth of JAH issues looking for one name in the show results?) and 2) the owner of that $13,500 auction Alborozo from BF isn't in the hobby, as far as we know.

I mean... where do you draw the line? Say I'm going to sell some of my rarer/desirable OFs: Puttin' on the Ritz, Silverado, Bluebonnet, Alpine: If you Google me and "model horse," you're only going to find Blab posts. Does that automatically mean I'm some anonymous villian, just waiting to scam someone, because I don't "do" anything in the hobby? (Sure, I've met fellow hobbyists in person, and I have a few green light posts and nothing negative - so did Jennifer Davis, at first. :dunno)

(Or is this only an issue for those buying/selling super-expensive resins... no one gives a crap about OFs?)


Not everyone is a member of MHHR. I personally did not join because at that point (and as far as I know, still), one of the mods was a person who had taken me for a lot of money, and tried to take 2 other British hobbyists as well. So it did not sit well with me that there was someone in a position of authority on that board who was willing to engage in fraud. I mean, if you have a bad rep, what better place to be than in a position to launder posts about yourself?

So for me, *MHHR* has a tarnished reputation. I've heard other people express similar reservations - which really throws the 'trust' question wide open.

Oh yeah, THIS. I am still a member, but I rarely check it... and when I do, I take everything with a grain of salt. (Anyone unfamiliar with that whole scenario - not necessarily Keren's personal experience, but the tarnished rep/reservations she mentioned - can just search on Blab for MHHR and that should clear things up. :uh)

Drakkarstudios
02-08-2011, 03:38 PM
Depends on the grass...

Does purple grass make you taller or just FeEl taller?!?!

cherrywood
02-08-2011, 03:46 PM
My father always taught me not to give money to anybody (you don't know) and I always feel terrible telling people "no" after getting their sob story, and my friends have given me a hard time for being so uncaring. But, I can't tell you the number of people who have come up to me who have "just had their wallet stolen" and need money for a train/subway ticket. I really feel guilty telling them I can't help, but I know that 99% of the time they are just scammers and give that story to hundreds of people a day. You hear now and then about these beggers that are actually making $80,000 a year :lol

Case in point when I was dating my hubby 5 "homeless" people lived in the same apartment complex as he did. They would stand on the side of a major intersection and just rake $$ in.

As a side I has been really lucky to work with a bunch of people who have taken a chance with a person who had no lights as of 2 years ago.

And yall also need to remember that a lot of times people dont post lights to MHHR/Blab/Ebay etc. I personally am on MHHR one time and I have done a LOT of transactions with a lot people

RivnRo
02-08-2011, 03:50 PM
Does purple grass make you taller or just FeEl taller?!?!

New York or Texas?

mumtaz
02-08-2011, 03:54 PM
I always check MHHR or Blab these days if it's a name I don't recognize or know well enough by reputation already. I've been burned a couple of times, and checking isn't always a fail-safe, but it sure helps. It takes just a few minutes of searching to get an idea of a person's transaction history.

Mary
02-08-2011, 04:10 PM
I mean... where do you draw the line? How much can you afford to lose?

That's where you draw the line.


When you're buying, it's not about everyone else and their story. It's about you. Only. :)


When you're selling, you have to earn your cred. Or have impeccable validation that people will trust. The buyer is the most vulnerable party in the transaction.

Drakkarstudios
02-08-2011, 04:41 PM
New York or Texas?

Texas...wait...what are we talking about again?!?!

RivnRo
02-08-2011, 04:47 PM
Texas...wait...what are we talking about again?!?!

No clue.. I got lost about 20 pages ago

DraytonWoods
02-08-2011, 04:50 PM
My father always taught me not to give money to anybody (you don't know) and I always feel terrible telling people "no" after getting their sob story, and my friends have given me a hard time for being so uncaring. But, I can't tell you the number of people who have come up to me who have "just had their wallet stolen" and need money for a train/subway ticket. I really feel guilty telling them I can't help, but I know that 99% of the time they are just scammers and give that story to hundreds of people a day. You hear now and then about these beggers that are actually making $80,000 a year :lol

Living in San Fran cured me of having any issue with ignoring beggars and telling them to go away.

This was actually good recently when a shyster looking dude approached me in the parking lot OF MY KID'S SCHOOL WHILE I WAS LOADING MY KID IN THE CARSEAT (still flabbergasted that he thought this was a good idea-- clearly he never heard of Mama Bears, 'cause I was ready to impale him) with some bull story about running out of gas up the street and his kid went to school there and his girlfriend was by the car and blah blah blah.... yeah, really smart to do this in a town not really known for beggars and in the parking lot of a school for the under-5 set with a tight community. We all called it into the office who had the police there already. WORD.

/tangent

PolarVrtX
02-08-2011, 04:54 PM
There's a guy who stands at the end of the exit ramp where I get off the highway every day in the spring/summer with a sign about being a homeless out of work veteran. I hate it when I'm first in front of the light because he's standing right there next to my window. Eyes forward! Eyes forward! :lol He must do ok, but I can't imagine anyone rolling down their window and giving him money.

Mary
02-08-2011, 05:08 PM
Part of my fell-for-it story is that the couple who conned me looked like people I'd go out to dinner with after work, any day. Clean, well-spoken, nice casual attire I'd see in the office or out with friends on the weekend. I think that's really what happened in the JD/MMD/JG/JC situation. The person was very relatable, seemed like one of the nicer hobbyists. Nice-ness just isn't a sufficient reference check, most unfortunately.

anniemare
02-08-2011, 05:11 PM
Lucky for you all I am bombastic and crabby - LOL! But seriously, all of the points made in this thread are good ones and should be heeded.

yofi
02-08-2011, 05:14 PM
I do wonder whether or not she started in the hobby with the intention to fraud people. Does anyone remember hearing of her pre 2005 (I believe that's when JulesCharon and Bayba joined Blab?)? It's the good reputation beforehand and the timeline that make me wonder. I can see reasons for working to get a good reputation, get people to trust her, defend her, believe her, etc., but at the same time, the first known red lights against her are in 2007, around the time of her arrest. That's two years of biding her time, which seems like a pretty long while to lie in wait, as it were. And then the coincidence of the timing of everything going sour coinciding with the arrest seems strange, too. Like someone mentioned, perhaps those were the funds she was using to buy things, and certainly, an arrest hanging over your head isn't going to make it easy to complete transactions.

Of course, then I wonder why all those identities would have been created at once (if they were? I don't know if Mary can check to see when they were joined?) if she HADN'T intended to scam anyone. I don't know of anyone here who needs multiple ID's.

I don't know. I suppose I'm just curious as to whether or not we have a die-hard scammer here or someone who fell on a bad time and drowned. There's reasoning supporting both.

ETA: Reread first post. It seems Bayba joined in 2004 and julescharon in February of 2005, so there were still two identities before the arrest/things started going downhill.

DraytonWoods
02-08-2011, 05:14 PM
The heightened paranoia we're all going to experience now is really going to suck for newcomers. I can think of two scenarios where someone "unknown" would be selling rare/desirable models, in the OF world: 1) Youth shower who won at BF once, but didn't keep up with the hobby wants to unload a prize model or two later on (who's going to dig through years' worth of JAH issues looking for one name in the show results?) and 2) the owner of that $13,500 auction Alborozo from BF isn't in the hobby, as far as we know.

I mean... where do you draw the line? Say I'm going to sell some of my rarer/desirable OFs: Puttin' on the Ritz, Silverado, Bluebonnet, Alpine: If you Google me and "model horse," you're only going to find Blab posts. Does that automatically mean I'm some anonymous villian, just waiting to scam someone, because I don't "do" anything in the hobby? (Sure, I've met fellow hobbyists in person, and I have a few green light posts and nothing negative - so did Jennifer Davis, at first. :dunno)

(Or is this only an issue for those buying/selling super-expensive resins... no one gives a crap about OFs?)



Oh yeah, THIS. I am still a member, but I rarely check it... and when I do, I take everything with a grain of salt. (Anyone unfamiliar with that whole scenario - not necessarily Keren's personal experience, but the tarnished rep/reservations she mentioned - can just search on Blab for MHHR and that should clear things up. :uh)

Yeah, a lot of this is in my head as well. I unsubbed MHHR when the stuff was going on, and my region and state lists aren't super active. In fact they are pretty INactive. It wouldn't be super fair for me to use those two as barometers for honesty.

Even for myself, I'd probably fail some of those tests Mary T described. I don't like having my real name archived on Google so I don't post it in my sig (it's Osborn, for the record) and most of my hobby record is on Blab--I just don't have time or inclination to post on other lists anymore. I show but not often. I dunno... not saying those suggestions are bad, they aren't, but there's just so many people not super active in the hobby but on the periphery yet are honest... I don't have a solution, just an observation. ;)

Drakkarstudios
02-08-2011, 06:11 PM
No clue.. I got lost about 20 pages ago

Wait...you were still into the story 20 pages ago...you're my hero. lol

On another note, there is a 'ring' of homeless people here on the Tollway that prey on people to give them money. It started out as a guy and his 'wife', I assume, taking turns on the corner. He is missing a leg and she has all of her appendages. They would go in shifts and I saw him leave one day and walk a block down to her waiting in a Taurus with lunch. lol Well, they branched out and now have like 15 different people with 'disabilities' (missing appendages, one guy turns his fake leg around so he looks even more sad, and most are just older and missing teeth) They have shifts that they work in and have moved down to the mall even.
We had a ring pf people doing this about 15 years ago and they interviewed one guy on the news and he said he makes $500 a day doing it.
.... on a side note I have decided to change careers...anyone else in the Dallas area interested in joining me....

DraytonWoods
02-08-2011, 06:31 PM
Oh, I'm sure some of the amputees are real. Gangrene from shooting up and exposure. The exit out of the city, going home, was always me trying not to notice the multiple-amputees hobbling around the cars begging for the next fix.

SF volunteer docs would get them under care and fixed up, but then the junkies would often shoot into another limb or the stub. No joke. It was one of the worst things about living there, seeing how desperate humanity can get.

hi_d_hi
02-08-2011, 06:47 PM
I think that one person with multiple identities intending to defraud is unusual ...


This has been done before, anyone remember Danielle R.? I don't remember the last name but when I was getting back into the hobby there was a lot about her. She was out of Cali, ended up going to jail I think for something unrelated to model horses, but a ROA just the same. Came back selling things on ebay, by another alias, trying once again to rip off people. I'm sure these cons just watch the goings on here in the hobby and think with dollar signs in their eyes, victims!

hi_d_hi
02-08-2011, 06:50 PM
especially if it sounds too good to be true.

No kidding! That feeling that you like to ignore, it's called intuition, and it's always right.

Alliecat
02-08-2011, 08:12 PM
There are many threads on Blab as has been stated. Just look up the names. This thread was not for that particular discussion of who owed who what (though I'm pretty sure it's been covered anyway, guess you missed those posts), it was to put pieces of the puzzle together. And argue about yucca plants, grass, shoes, hairdos, teeth, etc.
See, if anyone here is actually serious about actually doing anything, the most important pieces of the puzzle you can put together is WHAT CRIMES SHE COMMITTED. Good luck going to the police and telling them "It was a bunch of people, look up the posts yourself."

HorseChick
02-08-2011, 08:17 PM
I do wonder whether or not she started in the hobby with the intention to fraud people. Does anyone remember hearing of her pre 2005 (I believe that's when JulesCharon and Bayba joined Blab?)? It's the good reputation beforehand and the timeline that make me wonder. I can see reasons for working to get a good reputation, get people to trust her, defend her, believe her, etc., but at the same time, the first known red lights against her are in 2007, around the time of her arrest. That's two years of biding her time, which seems like a pretty long while to lie in wait, as it were. And then the coincidence of the timing of everything going sour coinciding with the arrest seems strange, too. Like someone mentioned, perhaps those were the funds she was using to buy things, and certainly, an arrest hanging over your head isn't going to make it easy to complete transactions.

Of course, then I wonder why all those identities would have been created at once (if they were? I don't know if Mary can check to see when they were joined?) if she HADN'T intended to scam anyone. I don't know of anyone here who needs multiple ID's.

I don't know. I suppose I'm just curious as to whether or not we have a die-hard scammer here or someone who fell on a bad time and drowned. There's reasoning supporting both.

ETA: Reread first post. It seems Bayba joined in 2004 and julescharon in February of 2005, so there were still two identities before the arrest/things started going downhill.

I can't think of any reason to have more then one identity in a forum such as this. What's the point? :dunno To play games?

I understand the people here who want to protect their privacy, for whatever reason. Those folks do so knowing that if they want to participate in certain forums on Blab, they'll have to "out" themselves ie: Transaction board or actually selling something here. Retaining ones privacy is a lot different them making multiple IDs and then having them interact with each other.

Kelleybelle22
02-08-2011, 08:23 PM
Oh, I'm sure some of the amputees are real. Gangrene from shooting up and exposure. The exit out of the city, going home, was always me trying not to notice the multiple-amputees hobbling around the cars begging for the next fix.

SF volunteer docs would get them under care and fixed up, but then the junkies would often shoot into another limb or the stub. No joke. It was one of the worst things about living there, seeing how desperate humanity can get.

I used to live in Portland and I go up there all the time to visit family and friends. I see also how desperate humanity can get. Portland Oregon holds a record in heroin users and homelessness is not just tolerated but warmly accepted by many residents of the city. I love Portland, its one of the most beautiful cities in the country, but I dont roll down my window and give out my hard earned money,however, you would be shocked at how many people do.

yofi
02-08-2011, 08:24 PM
See, if anyone here is actually serious about actually doing anything, the most important pieces of the puzzle you can put together is WHAT CRIMES SHE COMMITTED. Good luck going to the police and telling them "It was a bunch of people, look up the posts yourself."

Okay, what? Has anyone here said that's what'll happen? If anyone's going to be bringing charges, do you really think Liz, or any of us, actually, would allow those persons to go into it with no evidence? Do you seriously think we're all that dumb?

Honestly, you tend to be negative in any thread you join, and there's no reason for it. No interest in helping with this "case", no interest in keeping up with it? Then don't keep commenting, that simple.

shastaharley
02-08-2011, 08:50 PM
I do wonder whether or not she started in the hobby with the intention to fraud people. Does anyone remember hearing of her pre 2005 (I believe that's when JulesCharon and Bayba joined Blab?)? It's the good reputation beforehand and the timeline that make me wonder. I can see reasons for working to get a good reputation, get people to trust her, defend her, believe her, etc., but at the same time, the first known red lights against her are in 2007, around the time of her arrest. That's two years of biding her time, which seems like a pretty long while to lie in wait, as it were. And then the coincidence of the timing of everything going sour coinciding with the arrest seems strange, too. Like someone mentioned, perhaps those were the funds she was using to buy things, and certainly, an arrest hanging over your head isn't going to make it easy to complete transactions.

Of course, then I wonder why all those identities would have been created at once (if they were? I don't know if Mary can check to see when they were joined?) if she HADN'T intended to scam anyone. I don't know of anyone here who needs multiple ID's.

I don't know. I suppose I'm just curious as to whether or not we have a die-hard scammer here or someone who fell on a bad time and drowned. There's reasoning supporting both.

ETA: Reread first post. It seems Bayba joined in 2004 and julescharon in February of 2005, so there were still two identities before the arrest/things started going downhill.

Actually, the Jules Charon ID was red lighted in 2004 for trying to sell a model owned by Jennifer Davis. So it did start much earlier than 2007.

Mary
02-08-2011, 09:32 PM
See, if anyone here is actually serious about actually doing anything, the most important pieces of the puzzle you can put together is WHAT CRIMES SHE COMMITTED. Good luck going to the police and telling them "It was a bunch of people, look up the posts yourself."Please read the first post - carefully, the detail section. Liz spent a lot of time finding, listing and linking the specific transactions where people ended up without what they paid or traded for. Names, dates, items, details in the linked posts. It's been done - post #1. You'll have to read it more slowly and carefully, there is too much to make it into one headline that doesn't require thought or attention.

ravensgate
02-08-2011, 09:44 PM
See, if anyone here is actually serious about actually doing anything, the most important pieces of the puzzle you can put together is WHAT CRIMES SHE COMMITTED. Good luck going to the police and telling them "It was a bunch of people, look up the posts yourself."

As Mary stated, it's been listed. IN THIS THREAD. You are obviously not reading. And furthermore, do you really think a thread like this would have been started if crimes hadn't been committed? I mean, really??? What do you think the point would have been? Sorry but I'm going agree with Yofi here, you tend to bring negativity into threads and argue about things because you aren't reading. If the thread is too long for you to read, then yeah, why comment? It's been gone over ad nauseum what all of these identities have done.

Kristi Hale
02-08-2011, 09:46 PM
Wait...you were still into the story 20 pages ago...you're my hero. lol

On another note, there is a 'ring' of homeless people here on the Tollway that prey on people to give them money. It started out as a guy and his 'wife', I assume, taking turns on the corner. He is missing a leg and she has all of her appendages. They would go in shifts and I saw him leave one day and walk a block down to her waiting in a Taurus with lunch. lol Well, they branched out and now have like 15 different people with 'disabilities' (missing appendages, one guy turns his fake leg around so he looks even more sad, and most are just older and missing teeth) They have shifts that they work in and have moved down to the mall even.
We had a ring pf people doing this about 15 years ago and they interviewed one guy on the news and he said he makes $500 a day doing it.
.... on a side note I have decided to change careers...anyone else in the Dallas area interested in joining me....
Where is this? The Tollway and what?

Too cold for me.... brrr!

yofi
02-08-2011, 09:55 PM
As Mary stated, it's been listed. IN THIS THREAD. You are obviously not reading. And furthermore, do you really think a thread like this would have been started if crimes hadn't been committed? I mean, really??? What do you think the point would have been? Sorry but I'm going agree with Yofi here, you tend to bring negativity into threads and argue about things because you aren't reading. If the thread is too long for you to read, then yeah, why comment? It's been gone over ad nauseum what all of these identities have done.

Well come on, Jaime. Clearly we all just like starting drama!

ravensgate
02-08-2011, 10:10 PM
Well come on, Jaime. Clearly we all just like starting drama!

Hey, I tried. I brought up plants and brought photos to the party. And different pants with kangaroo shoes. I had the drama for a moment, but then I must have tired folks out:lol I know this is a super long thread, but there are buttloads of links, dollar amounts spelled out, stolen resins mentioned, and everything. I'm pretty sure it's all in this thread without having to wander about looking for info. Liz spent a TON of time getting those links together, as did John. All of the info is there. This is not a thread about 'Hey, so and so is using an alias, LOOK OUT!' This is about 4 different aliases ripping people off that is looking more and more like one individual (the aliases that is). Crimes have been committed and are listed. I just don't like someone saying a bunch of drama is being started for nothing when it's all spelled out and they just aren't reading the information given. Call me crazy like that!

RivnRo
02-08-2011, 10:29 PM
http://sweetiesarah.webs.com/photos/1554742429_756a0ef5ee.jpg

ravensgate
02-08-2011, 10:31 PM
Says the master thread derailer.:roflmao

Two Fishies
02-08-2011, 10:32 PM
Part of me is very curious to know how much of the $49,000 went back into the hobby. Just glancing back through MHHR*, I thought it was interesting how often she asked for references there (I'm looking back at 2003 at the moment.) If nothing else, she seems to have been well versed in the system which could be why she ended up playing her game around it.

*And Keren, I get where you're coming from with the MHHR situation. I try to take what I see (and in some cases DON'T see) there with a grain of salt.

Just for the record, Lauren Tapley, Lauren Hoeffer, Lauren Upton, Lauren Wood, and myself are all the same person. Admittedly, I should have been more creative with the names.

RivnRo
02-08-2011, 10:33 PM
Says the master thread derailer.:roflmao

LOL I know.. posting I am thinking Dude.. this is totally directed at myself.. ah well.. Reply!

yofi
02-08-2011, 10:56 PM
Just for the record, Lauren Tapley, Lauren Hoeffer, Lauren Upton, Lauren Wood, and myself are all the same person. Admittedly, I should have been more creative with the names.

Finally, the truth!

anniemare
02-08-2011, 10:59 PM
Actually no. I have seen Laura and Lauren Wood at teh same place at the same time ;)

Drakkarstudios
02-08-2011, 11:03 PM
Where is this? The Tollway and what?

Too cold for me.... brrr!

The Tollway and Northwest Highway. There is pretty much someone there at rush time, at least, morning and night standing around. I haven't seen them in the past two weeks I don't think, but there's been les traffic as well. I have seen as many as four people, one on each off ramp and two on the east and west bound on nw hwy. I have seen them chased by the cops off of the street, I have seen them switch shifts, and I saw the husband who started it meet the 'wife' in the parking lot of a church(?) on the north east corner. Yeah it's bad. lol It started about 4 years ago. I remember cause I drive by there everyday going to school and work. I used the same exit for work and then during the week for SMU cause Mockingbird was torn up for years.


http://sweetiesarah.webs.com/photos/1554742429_756a0ef5ee.jpg

RIP Drama Llama!! RIP!!


Actually no. I have seen Laura and Lauren Wood at teh same place at the same time ;)

Easy enough if they are the same person! DUH!!!! lol *puts pinky to mouth ala Dr. Evil*

yofi
02-08-2011, 11:07 PM
Actually no. I have seen Laura and Lauren Wood at teh same place at the same time ;)

Mirrors are tricky things, Carra. :yes

Gilder
02-08-2011, 11:10 PM
Actually no. I have seen Laura and Lauren Wood at teh same place at the same time ;)

Smoke and mirrors, my dear.

ladybrooklyn
02-08-2011, 11:10 PM
Just for the record, Lauren Tapley, Lauren Hoeffer, Lauren Upton, Lauren Wood, and myself are all the same person. Admittedly, I should have been more creative with the names.

Ok... don't you DARE drag ME into this! :bluerant


Actually no. I have seen Laura and Lauren Wood at teh same place at the same time ;)
:lol Believe it or not... ALL of us were at the same place... at the same time... if for only a moment... at Breyerfest last year! :lol It didn't last long tho... so I guess, who's to say it happened at all! :lol

DraytonWoods
02-08-2011, 11:37 PM
Hole in the time-space continuum?

anniemare
02-08-2011, 11:43 PM
Well, one is ginger and a little spitfire and one is not and a bit more mellow - LOL!

Two Fishies
02-09-2011, 02:17 AM
Well, one is ginger and a little spitfire and one is not and a bit more mellow - LOL!

Mellow? Me? (Well, I guess in comparison to Lauren ;))

fatvole
02-09-2011, 02:35 AM
This has been done before, anyone remember Danielle R.? I don't remember the last name but when I was getting back into the hobby there was a lot about her. She was out of Cali, ended up going to jail I think for something unrelated to model horses, but a ROA just the same. Came back selling things on ebay, by another alias, trying once again to rip off people. I'm sure these cons just watch the goings on here in the hobby and think with dollar signs in their eyes, victims!

Danielle Reed Peranteaux. Yes, we in Cali were QUITE aware of her! As I say, we TCB when it comes to the bad guys here. Which is why MMD's story about the phantom prepper in San Diego rang so false - nobody here would let something like that go un-dealt with. Region 2 = model horse Mafia! (Hi Carra and Laura S.! They can back me up!). A small posse of people actually DID show up at DRP's place to get their models back. And she did indeed go to jail (yes, on an unrelated matter, but there ya go...). It was so nice to see her name pop up on the LA Sheriffs Dept Inmate Finder website... sweet.

Appy38
02-09-2011, 02:56 AM
http://sweetiesarah.webs.com/photos/1554742429_756a0ef5ee.jpg


http://gprime.net/flash.php/llamasong :outtahere

fatvole
02-09-2011, 03:01 AM
The heightened paranoia we're all going to experience now is really going to suck for newcomers. I can think of two scenarios where someone "unknown" would be selling rare/desirable models, in the OF world: 1) Youth shower who won at BF once, but didn't keep up with the hobby wants to unload a prize model or two later on (who's going to dig through years' worth of JAH issues looking for one name in the show results?) and 2) the owner of that $13,500 auction Alborozo from BF isn't in the hobby, as far as we know.

I mean... where do you draw the line? Say I'm going to sell some of my rarer/desirable OFs: Puttin' on the Ritz, Silverado, Bluebonnet, Alpine: If you Google me and "model horse," you're only going to find Blab posts. Does that automatically mean I'm some anonymous villian, just waiting to scam someone, because I don't "do" anything in the hobby? (Sure, I've met fellow hobbyists in person, and I have a few green light posts and nothing negative - so did Jennifer Davis, at first. :dunno)

(Or is this only an issue for those buying/selling super-expensive resins... no one gives a crap about OFs?)

HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAA! Tell that to the poor girl and her mother who were totally TAKEN for big bucks like 2-3 years ago (I think it was) when they bought a counterfeit Wedgwood Sham and took it to a live show, where they were sadly informed by the experienced showers there.

Who goes through back issues of JAH? Me, for one. That's what RESEARCH is all about. I know the provenance of EVERY high-end OF horse I have. I either earned it myself as a judge/volunteer, bought it from someone I know was a judge/volunteer or winner at that particular show, or bought it from someone who also has careful provenance. In my direct experience, for the most part, people who really *do* own the high-end big-ticket OF are major players and deal seriously. I mean, folks, you're talking about editions as small as 8-30 horses. It really isn't that hard!

For instance, two years ago at BreyerWest, we each were given (volunteer/judges) a glossy of the four treasure hunt horses at random -- 8 glossy of each of the four were made. That means there are "8" glossy red roan Wixoms in existence. I'm looking over at mine right now, and trust me, I *know* who got the other 7, and who kept theirs and who sold. Pedigrees are more complex than that. If need ever arose, I could literally trace back. That's only 7 horses, it is NOT that difficult. All you have to do is ask people who were there. Then again, this is California/Region 2, where collectibility is HUGE and it's vitally important to know who your competition is and where they are. Geez, it sounds like we've got RFID chips in everyone's pinholes...

Which brings me to my exact point. I (and I'm speaking personally about my habits) deal with people who SHOW. There are FEW people who would try to snooker anyone in collectibility in California, because we have eagle-eyes for that sort of thing. I remember around 5-7 years ago someone actually tried purchasing a faux decorator from eBay and passing it off as real at a show. Suspicious after the show's end, a couple of the judges (who had taken photos) went and actually FOUND THE EBAY AUCTION INFO STILL UP for the faux horse. They compared the show photos to the auction page, and it was a match. Angry emails and phone calls ensued. Amazingly enough, we never ever saw that horse again somehow... And yes, the person still shows here -- much chastised. The laughable thing was it was a veteran long-time shower who should have known better, and how this person thought this could be passed off successfully here still is beyond me. Nobody's tried it since, that's for sure.

So I guess the real bottom line is, you should show collectibility in California? ;) At any rate, it is the real, warm-body LIVE SHOW EXPERIENCE that will save new showers. When I first started, I was saved from spending way too much money on things I wanted by, you guessed it, actual human contact at a live show. These are hobby friends who have been invaluable. That's why I put such a great store in whether a person shows or not. That's just me. At any rate, again, I've never been burned, so I think my system works.

Shenanigans
02-09-2011, 04:43 AM
http://sweetiesarah.webs.com/photos/1554742429_756a0ef5ee.jpg

Hey, leave me out of this!

LesliKathman
02-09-2011, 05:56 AM
Ya know...everyone seems to be using Carra as their reference of existence..

Perhaps alllll of *you* are Carra..

When the hobby first got online as a group, the running joke was about which of us was Nancy Strowger. She was an artist in the 1970s that went through several "incarnations" over time. Believe it or not, this sort of thing was done a few times way back then. It was just harder to do since you needed to have a new physical address.

I'm not sure I've ever seen anything quite this calculated, though. In the past people seemed to do this when they got in over their head and didn't want to leave forever, so they started over as someone "new".

indefinitely_jaded
02-09-2011, 08:33 AM
HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAA! Tell that to the poor girl and her mother who were totally TAKEN for big bucks like 2-3 years ago (I think it was) when they bought a counterfeit Wedgwood Sham and took it to a live show, where they were sadly informed by the experienced showers there.

Who goes through back issues of JAH? Me, for one. That's what RESEARCH is all about. I know the provenance of EVERY high-end OF horse I have. I either earned it myself as a judge/volunteer, bought it from someone I know was a judge/volunteer or winner at that particular show, or bought it from someone who also has careful provenance. In my direct experience, for the most part, people who really *do* own the high-end big-ticket OF are major players and deal seriously. I mean, folks, you're talking about editions as small as 8-30 horses. It really isn't that hard!

For instance, two years ago at BreyerWest, we each were given (volunteer/judges) a glossy of the four treasure hunt horses at random -- 8 glossy of each of the four were made. That means there are "8" glossy red roan Wixoms in existence. I'm looking over at mine right now, and trust me, I *know* who got the other 7, and who kept theirs and who sold. Pedigrees are more complex than that. If need ever arose, I could literally trace back. That's only 7 horses, it is NOT that difficult. All you have to do is ask people who were there. Then again, this is California/Region 2, where collectibility is HUGE and it's vitally important to know who your competition is and where they are. Geez, it sounds like we've got RFID chips in everyone's pinholes...

Which brings me to my exact point. I (and I'm speaking personally about my habits) deal with people who SHOW. There are FEW people who would try to snooker anyone in collectibility in California, because we have eagle-eyes for that sort of thing. I remember around 5-7 years ago someone actually tried purchasing a faux decorator from eBay and passing it off as real at a show. Suspicious after the show's end, a couple of the judges (who had taken photos) went and actually FOUND THE EBAY AUCTION INFO STILL UP for the faux horse. They compared the show photos to the auction page, and it was a match. Angry emails and phone calls ensued. Amazingly enough, we never ever saw that horse again somehow... And yes, the person still shows here -- much chastised. The laughable thing was it was a veteran long-time shower who should have known better, and how this person thought this could be passed off successfully here still is beyond me. Nobody's tried it since, that's for sure.

So I guess the real bottom line is, you should show collectibility in California? ;) At any rate, it is the real, warm-body LIVE SHOW EXPERIENCE that will save new showers. When I first started, I was saved from spending way too much money on things I wanted by, you guessed it, actual human contact at a live show. These are hobby friends who have been invaluable. That's why I put such a great store in whether a person shows or not. That's just me. At any rate, again, I've never been burned, so I think my system works.

:hide

Sorry I've never shown. Guess that makes me an unreliable nobody who should keep her thoughts to herself when she doesn't know what she's talking about. :)

MustangGina
02-09-2011, 08:47 AM
I don't think I can get on board with the whole "only buy from people who live show" thing. Well, mainly because Kim Abbott and I live in a wasteland for live showing. There are very few shows within driving distance for us. I live showed quite a bit when I lived in Virginia but have only been to one live show in the last 5 years. So, because I live in an area where live showing is limited, you wouldn't buy from me? Even thought I'm easily searchable as "MustangGina" on basically everything? Just seems.....I don't know...limiting I guess. I've never been burned either and I just use common sense and my in-born sense of suspicion. If it sounds too good to be true, it is. I would certainly buy from Kim. I've met her...she stays at my house....she is a GREAT friend. Just saying I wouldn't necessarily use live show participation as a guideline. Now I would be suspicious of buying a high dollar horse from a non-hobby person. I would only buy something costing more than about $100.00 in person at that point. However, in the case of Jennifer Davis, that wouldn't have saved me. This whole episode just drives home the point of "do your research".

Beethovens7th
02-09-2011, 09:10 AM
Hey, leave me out of this!
:roflmao

Beethovens7th
02-09-2011, 09:13 AM
:hide

Sorry I've never shown. Guess that makes me an unreliable nobody who should keep her thoughts to herself when she doesn't know what she's talking about. :)

No! But i would advise showing as the experiences are invaluable!:yes

firefighter17
02-09-2011, 09:29 AM
Please remember that not everybody has the desire or ability (including lack of shows in area) to show. Some people collect just for the shear joy of collecting.

Misty
02-09-2011, 09:43 AM
Please remember that not everybody has the desire or ability (including lack of shows in area) to show. Some people collect just for the shear joy of collecting. :yeahthat I showed years ago, but no longer have the desire to.

Stitch
02-09-2011, 10:00 AM
Please remember that not everybody has the desire or ability (including lack of shows in area) to show. Some people collect just for the shear joy of collecting.

I don't show. Heck I am darn lucky if my models make it a year without being tipped over, scratched up, flung, chucked, tossed or crashing somewhere in this household. If I had to show, there would need to be a special ICU class just for my abused and injured by owner models.

oh and I'm not really April. I'm actually Jack Sparrow. I mean a pirate can't plunder with a crew, if they knew I liked plastic ponies...

bronzino
02-09-2011, 10:21 AM
Oh FCOL, of course Mary didn't mean that nobody should deal with the non-showing populace.

Appearances at live shows is one of the signs that a person is a real person. If it doesn't exist, then you look for other ones. I think people are well aware that not everybody shows. Do we have to make every convo into a story about how somebody is wounded or being overlooked, lol?

Mary
02-09-2011, 10:39 AM
Actually I don't remember being in the showing discussion much, but ... :lol

My point is this - honestly, people don't have to make simple research harder than it needs to be in most transactions you'll ever do. In this specific case there were multiple warnings going back a long time. Easy-peasey to find, I found them barely trying. The seller(s) didn't need to be profiled, vouched, fingerprinted, investigated by a private detective or anything extraordinary to find warning flags. All one had to do was search MHHR and Blab. And your bank account has no idea if the person "sounds nice" or not, it cares only that you sent money and never got a model (or other item.)

Anyone who cuts themselves off from what has been a good source of first-hand information such as MHHR or Blab's TTB is making a choice that only they are responsible for. MHHR goes back futher than Blab, and some people report in one and not the other, so search both. In several of the cases in the first post, especially MMD, a simple search of both sites would have saved some people some money and heartache - nothing elaborate was needed. IMO just because one or two instances doesn't work well on either board is not a reason to throw out baby & bath water together.

Searching both MHHR and Blab TTB is so simple. Using basic common sense about the findings is well within the capacity of this intelligent hobby. People can dwell on reasons for not using a safety net - or they can just use a safety net and not hit the ground. Just saying. ;)

Of course this unusual situation fires people's imaginations. But imo being too seriously diverted to thinking up extraordinary verification processes will miss the real lesson. The real lesson is that simple basic research will save you in most cases if you will just do it and be ready to walk away. Those last 2 things are too often missing from many wonky transactions, based on reading TTB threads.

/end soapbox

LesliKathman
02-09-2011, 10:43 AM
I don't think there is a way to completely protect yourself from being taken. I know a number of sellers in the community who have, at least at times, limited who they deal with to "known quantities". The problem of course is that this closes off the community to new people, and I think that dwindling numbers are a greater risk to our long-time stability than a handful of bad apples.

No one should be outright foolish (says the woman who once let someone take a custom home from a live show with nothing more than a promise of later payment, and then never saw horse or person again), but I think the assumption that most are dealing in good faith is not off-base.

irvinearts
02-09-2011, 01:25 PM
All one had to do was search MHHR and Blab. Anyone who cuts themselves off from what has been a good source of first-hand information such as MHHR or Blab's TTB is making a choice that only they are responsible for. Searching both MHHR and Blab TTB is so simple.

:stickpoke :dohdoh That's exactly how I got stung by MMD, I didn't even know of Blab or MHHR then and if I had I definitely would have left well alone. So lesson learnt, although there was a silver lining of course :popcorn :D :cheers I found Blab........:clap

fatvole
02-09-2011, 03:17 PM
Oh FCOL, of course Mary didn't mean that nobody should deal with the non-showing populace.

Appearances at live shows is one of the signs that a person is a real person. If it doesn't exist, then you look for other ones. I think people are well aware that not everybody shows. Do we have to make every convo into a story about how somebody is wounded or being overlooked, lol?

Thank you!

Everyone, please reread this sentence in my rant: Which brings me to my exact point. I (and I'm speaking personally about my habits) deal with people who SHOW

I am talking about ME, what I do. I live in a state/Region that having a live show practically every other weekend is merely our way of saying 'hello.' If you'll look at my stuff in the MMD thread, I think I've made it clear that California/Nevada is HUGELY active as a whole , we have VERY few hobbyists here who've never even just visited a live show. We've got a big one coming up this Sunday (the Stone Eureka show) that people from all over Region 2 are coming down for). I'm perfectly aware that there are a lot of places that aren't as active, it's just a regional thing -- I'm used to dealing with people who go to a lot, because we have a lot.

Also, we have a lot of out-of-staters who come here to judge and show regularly like TwoFishies (hi!) and foolish escapees like Carra/Stig and others, who I'd deal with in a second because I have met them personally, and they're active on boards -- that's another hallmark.

PolarVrtX
02-09-2011, 03:20 PM
and they're active on boards -- that's another hallmark.

:randommil That's exactly the trap everyone fell in to!!!

Erin
02-09-2011, 03:25 PM
:randommil That's exactly the trap everyone fell in to!!!

You missed the AND, though - having seen somebody in person AND seeing their on-line presence regularly can help.

Sweet Defense
02-09-2011, 03:32 PM
Here's my take on doing biz with hobby people I don't know/have never heard of -- basically, do they show? Whether live or photo? Are they active and involved? Google their names and 'model horse' -- are show results (like NAN) coming up that show their names? I of course know that some collectors don't show, but most of the A-game major players, who I would be the first to take seriously, do. Have I heard their name a lot, or has someone who I trust and show with heard of them? Go over to their regional lists (and ask to sub if the archives are private) -- are they busy over with their own gang? I am certainly vocal over on Region 2, which in and of itself is a super non-shrinking-violet list with stuff going on every day -- one simple inquiry would have me rushing over and going "what?"

If it's taking me more than five minutes to start really finding someone, and yet they purport to be selling a really high-end or super showable horse, I take pause. And consequently, I've never ever been burned. It's common sense.

Not necessarily - a lot of artists don't show much. In my case, it's a lack of shows in my area (in Dallas, yes, but that's a 3+ hour drive), lack of money for show and hotel when I didn't have a job, teeny tiny show string, and now a desire to be home since I travel so much. I have responsibilities to my bird, and I don't think it's fair for me to be gone most of the week, then come home for one day and then leave for the weekend again for a show. So, showing isn't a main priority for me - I thoroughly enjoy seeing horses I've painted do well at shows for others. So, it's a little annoying to hear it recommended that if you don't show consistently, you're considered a risk. And - plenty of people who show a lot have turned out to be risks, so you can't use it as a way to determine honesty.

DraytonWoods
02-09-2011, 03:32 PM
I live in a state/Region that having a live show practically every other weekend is merely our way of saying 'hello.' If you'll look at my stuff in the MMD thread, I think I've made it clear that California/Nevada is HUGELY active as a whole , we have VERY few hobbyists here who've never even just visited a live show. We've got a big one coming up this Sunday (the Stone Eureka show) that people from all over Region 2 are coming down for). I'm perfectly aware that there are a lot of places that aren't as active, it's just a regional thing -- I'm used to dealing with people who go to a lot, because we have a lot.

It's also a weather thing, let's be honest. It's easy and fun to trek up and down CA year round, not so much in the rest of the country. Densely packed hobby hotbeds like Chicago and the East Coast aside, there's just not a lot of showing to be had from Nov to March and for good reason!

DraytonWoods
02-09-2011, 03:39 PM
There is just no guarantee. There is what works for one's own self (and I think that Mary T was just detailing her method, though she's in what I consider an anomalous situation from many hobbyists) and what is going to work for someone else. You just use your gut, your common sense, some references, and hope for the best. There are no guarantees. I do think this hobby can be overly trusting, but yet I don't feel it needs to go in the opposite direction where everyone is a suspect. Somewhere in the middle would be good, you know?

As for online vs. real life, I've dealt with blowhards online who are lovely people in real life, and people who are intelligent and reasonable online but cuckoo for cocoa puffs in real life. It's... such a crapshoot. You can just follow your method and hope for the best.

Me, I think there should be more conventions, not shows but conventions, where we can buy and sell and see each other IRL. But then there are hobbyists who do a great job selling in person and a crap job selling online. You know?

Sweet Defense
02-09-2011, 03:45 PM
Even knowing someone isn't a guarantee. I'm sure more than one of us thought we knew someone who seemed really wonderful, reliable and normal in person, and then went crazy and disappeared from the hobby, without much of any prior indication. So, there are no guarantees, all you can do is take as many precautions as possible. One of mine is pay PayPal. I also don't require most of the commissions I take to put down a down payment, so I'm not holding someone's money and horse hostage (only time I require it is when the horse is clearly worth a great deal less than what I charge). That's more for me, it's a just in case things blow up and I can't finish the commission. No money to return, just the horse. I might get taken that way, but that's better than being accused of scamming someone.

Drakkarstudios
02-09-2011, 04:13 PM
I live in Dallas and there are a few shows that aren't really far from me and should be easy to get to. I would LOVE to go. The last show I went to was teh Nutmeg Classic, in 2001, and I was a noone so I don't think anyone remembers me except the personthat drooled over my nonplacing Raakid. Why don't I show....well, I work on the weekends...the entire weekend straight through. I would have to mis out on income for horses to be able to show and probably get fired.
I am available for people to come over and verify my existence though. lmao You can look,but not touch my collection. lol Just give me a week or two to get my house cleaned up. haha

tibbi
02-09-2011, 04:20 PM
I live a long ways from any where. I've been to two shows. One I participated in, the other was NAN and as I wasn't showing I just made a brief appearance and said "hi" to a friend who was judging.

I'm pretty sure I'm a real person but it may be hard for the rest of the hobby to confirm it.

Tibbi

Tanja
02-09-2011, 05:04 PM
Wow, wow, wow, what informations. I can't describe what I feel at this moment ( I am one of the international buyer with Michelle MacGrath Davis and haven't got my money back)


haha yeah that

No harm done Andrew, im just happy it was a typo but im glad you came back on here to say it was and that was not what you meant :hugg

Sara, I know that you are great. Thank you so much that you will help that we get our money back.

Tanja
02-09-2011, 05:20 PM
Oh, I forgot to say: When I bought the unpainted Lonestar I checked out MHHR and Blab - there were no bad references for Michelle End of 2009/January 2010.

Tanja Nagel

Keren
02-09-2011, 05:31 PM
I'm not sure I've ever seen anything quite this calculated, though. In the past people seemed to do this when they got in over their head and didn't want to leave forever, so they started over as someone "new".

I've always said there are two basic types in ANY hobby - the folk who genuinely love whatever the hobby is, and the folks who use it as a means to further *their* REAL hobby, which is messing up other people. The subject of this thread definitely seems to fall into the latter category.

Keren

Two Fishies
02-09-2011, 05:46 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAA! Tell that to the poor girl and her mother who were totally TAKEN for big bucks like 2-3 years ago (I think it was) when they bought a counterfeit Wedgwood Sham and took it to a live show, where they were sadly informed by the experienced showers there.

Was that the one with the solid blue legs? God, I think that one hit my inbox a couple times and I passed. And passed and passed. The buyer has my sympathies.

Mary’s right though, showing in Region 2 is the crash course in collectability. I cut my teeth there and I know better than to try and pass anything less than genuine by this group. They’ll eat you alive. ;)

(Mary, BTW, can you PM me the name of the gal trying to pass off the fake deco? I think that was before my Region 2 stint.)

Personally, I try to be a cautious buyer when dealing with rare models. I buy most of my models are Breyerfest. I can spot most fakes--even good ones--when I get it in my hands, but I know that’s not a common skill. Years of learning how to create a fake will do that (not that I create fakes and sell them, but it’s necessary to know when you do restoration work.) And yes, regular showing expanded my knowledge, too.

You can’t replace the experience of getting these things in your hands. There are some things you can't see through a computer screen.


Not necessarily - a lot of artists don't show much. In my case, it's a lack of shows in my area (in Dallas, yes, but that's a 3+ hour drive), lack of money for show and hotel when I didn't have a job, teeny tiny show string, and now a desire to be home since I travel so much. I have responsibilities to my bird, and I don't think it's fair for me to be gone most of the week, then come home for one day and then leave for the weekend again for a show. So, showing isn't a main priority for me - I thoroughly enjoy seeing horses I've painted do well at shows for others. So, it's a little annoying to hear it recommended that if you don't show consistently, you're considered a risk. And - plenty of people who show a lot have turned out to be risks, so you can't use it as a way to determine honesty.

Ahh, but here’s where you’re wrong: you do show! While many in the hobby haven’t met you in person, we’ve seen your work at shows. An artist’s work is often an ambassador for them. A custom comes with an owner. An owner can tell you about a positive transaction and so on. It’s also worth noting that artists, overall, tend to sell more models more often than, say, a black hole collector. More transactions means more chances to earn a rep, good or bad.


Even knowing someone isn't a guarantee. I'm sure more than one of us thought we knew someone who seemed really wonderful, reliable and normal in person, and then went crazy and disappeared from the hobby, without much of any prior indication.

I couple names spring to mind immediately. People I knew, in person, with mutual friends who just went…nuts.

Sweet Defense
02-09-2011, 06:18 PM
Guess that's true, I never thought about it that way. Yep, people who just went dingy all of a sudden.

fatvole
02-09-2011, 07:19 PM
Was that the one with the solid blue legs? God, I think that one hit my inbox a couple times and I passed. And passed and passed. The buyer has my sympathies.

Mary’s right though, showing in Region 2 is the crash course in collectability. I cut my teeth there and I know better than to try and pass anything less than genuine by this group. They’ll eat you alive. ;)

(Mary, BTW, can you PM me the name of the gal trying to pass off the fake deco? I think that was before my Region 2 stint.)

PM coming! You're going to SWOON...

jasper978
02-10-2011, 09:27 PM
Wanted to update that I received the MO envelope and MO today. Jules Charon is the addressor on the envelop and used a P.O. Box address in Levittown, NY.

Stitch
02-10-2011, 10:06 PM
I've invited someone to come on here as it seams someone else now has been a victim of this person(s) and quite recently.

tabletopstudios
02-11-2011, 12:09 PM
There's a new post on MHHR from a person who paid JennyLee Guzzi in December 2010 for an Alpine that never arrived. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MHHR/message/73198

The post indicates that there may be other last names being used by JennyLee (Mitchell and Guzman) and that JennyLee 'sold' the Alpine model to at least one other person who is now pursuing mail fraud charges.

Kim Haymond

anniemare
02-11-2011, 12:46 PM
Dood. This is like an infection that keeps producing pus. Sorry for the gross image, but seriously.

Mary
02-11-2011, 12:50 PM
I am sorry to hear the game is still on. But not surprised.

As new names entered the picture there is one common denominator that linked new names to the same person - the address: Levittown, NY 11756, house number 105.

Blab has had a policy of not publishing addresses and phone numbers unless the person approves or does it themselves. It's the internet and hobbyists should have at least that confidence in Blab. But - in this case if the address had been published everyone would have seen long ago that there was one address for a number of sellers.

In light of this, I am considering a change allowing the town name, zip code and house number - only the street name would be withheld. I think this is sufficient to be confident two addresses are the same. Without exposing the definitive physical address as there could be dozens, even hundreds of the same house number on different streets.

What do you all think of that proposed change?

Of course some of this information is find-able on the web, if people haven't actively removed their info from search sites. That Blab can't take responsibility for, just what is available on Blab.

shastaharley
02-11-2011, 01:13 PM
Mary, I think that is a very good idea. If people posted that info when giving red lights it might really help cut down on people using different names.

solticeart
02-11-2011, 02:14 PM
you know what would be kind nice.. is if on blab under everyones avatar ( or even under the sigs) and the info of join date ect...there could be something just like the green buttons that are now above the avatar ..but. one would be for good transactions and red ones for bad.. and if you clicked on each little green or red button it would take you to the post about that transaction.. now.. everyone would have to post if they had a good or bad one..( like they could go to the persons profile and put in good or bad and the link..) but it would be nice to see right off the bat if someone is a bad seller or buyer.. so if your talking with someone and you can look and see right there if that have any red buttons.. or no green.. before you even deal with them.. it wont and wouldn't have stopped whats happened in this case but may have helped one or 2 people not get ripped off...it may not be possible but was just an idea .. I have weird ideas now and then..lol

Mary
02-11-2011, 03:08 PM
A systematic feedback system is an idea. IMO the ratings that matter are those that are more recent. As has been observed, sometimes things change with previously honest people, and sometimes people with past problems reform. And I say that as someone who hasn't done much buying/selling in quite a while, so my own feedback is thin.

And Liz' ideas in another thread for general standards for hobby transactions, although she was looking more at commissions. When does "slow to ship" turn to "didn't ship?" A standard that if a model hasn't arrived after 12 weeks, regardless of the reasons, is a more serious negative feedback, even if the seller is still promising to ship. That kind of thing. And - the complaining buyer must, must retain the evidence such as emails and dates in order to register a formal complaint. Honestly, memories are faulty, personally I don't even trust my own.

Not really intending a suggestion so much as another idea building on Rebecca's.

fatvole
02-11-2011, 04:10 PM
HEY! CHECK THIS OUT!!!!

http://sharynguzzi4.point2agent.com/Our_Agents/page_2073121.html

Third name down should sound familiar!
Sharyn is apparently her mother (according to the Long Island horsey sites)

Well lookie there, emails and phone numbers...

And lookie there, she's apparently a member of a Real Estate board. They tend to frown on fraudsters. Wonder if there's a morals clause...

EDIT: Note, I've screencapped the images of Sharyn and Jenny (in fact all 3 of the guzzi girls) as well as emails and phone numbers in case they try to tear it down.
Amazing what about 5 minutes on-line can do...

fatvole
02-11-2011, 04:28 PM
Here's more:
https://appsext7.dos.state.ny.us/nydos/list.do;jsessionid=GNKGIOAIKKNH?anchor=69f0911.0

So she is indeed licensed by NY State Dept of Licensing -- and that means there's usually a recourse for fraud/complaints.

EDIT: And here we are...

http://www.dos.state.ny.us/licensing/complaint.html

I recommend writing and/or calling and inquiring as to complaining about a licensee engaging in fraudulent acts outside of the scope of the license, if that's possible. And I'd also contact Ms. Guzzi by certified mail to the work office, return receipt requested. When you're able to go after someone's livelihood and money, that's where things usually start to happen.

This information is all READILY AVAILABLE to the public on the Internet, so I'm hoping moderation etc won't be an issue.

onekindacowboy
02-11-2011, 04:40 PM
But we do not have confirmation that the person in question is not just using those names right? Please do not make complaints about a person tha we do not know for sure is involved. The complaint system in most states is really bogged down as it is.

Stitch
02-11-2011, 04:48 PM
But we do not have confirmation that the person in question is not just using those names right? Please do not make complaints about a person tha we do not know for sure is involved. The complaint system in most states is really bogged down as it is.

Please make sure to post your full name when responding/replying to anything in the TTB section. You may also do a one time post in this thread here:

http://www.modelhorseblab.com/forums/showthread.php?107089-TTB-first-last-name-thread

fatvole
02-11-2011, 04:57 PM
But we do not have confirmation that the person in question is not just using those names right? Please do not make complaints about a person tha we do not know for sure is involved. The complaint system in most states is really bogged down as it is.

First, as I'm sure Boss Mary will tell you -- on TTB we need full names, please either sign your post or put it in your signature, which makes it easier.

Second, please read the ENTIRE first post and click on ALL links within it. Do Google searches of names. And slog through about a year+ of posts on this board. We have all been working with this issue for a looooong time. I am not saying anyone is anything, but a lot of people here on this board are truly CSI-worthy (and I hope I help in some way as well, even though I have no dog in this fight), and I think the net is closing in nicely due to lots of people who WERE defrauded, speaking up. That's how things get done.

Finally, more info: I was going to entitle this cleverly "But Stand Back, Mom's (allegedly) got a gun!"

http://www.paladium.net/usa-farnewyorkstate0000PistolPermit2010Jun_01T50.php

To add to the name info: After Googling the long island/hampton show information, I found the 'fight' they were all in on the unrelated board with Jennylee Guzzi over there. Very quickly a person named "Sharyn" jumped into the fray, declaring herself Jennylee Guzzi's mother and flying to her defense. Some more information (including from the Real Estate licensing etc.) describes her as "Sharyn Elaine Guzzi."

Please note that on the website for the real estate firm, Jennylee is listed as "Jennylee (Guzzi) Tsicalos." Her sales license is also issued to Tsicalos, and Sharyn's is to Guzzi -- and they're both at the same office.

On the concealed weapon permit page from 2010, a concealed-weapon-carry permit was issued to "Sharyn E Tsicalos." 'Tsicalos' is Jennylee Guzzi's other last name on their real estate business' page (now it's hard to tell what's a maiden name and what isn't).

Again, I'm not saying anyone's anything or anybody, but this is all connecting some really interesting dots...

But I'd caution people -- don't go to their house on your own ... ;)

onekindacowboy
02-11-2011, 05:14 PM
I am sorry my name is Tammy Rogers and I will not hijack this thread with any further thoughts

mobyus
02-11-2011, 05:33 PM
Actually, I think Tammy (onekindacowboy) might have a point. I'm just trying to clarify on what Mary (fatvole) has posted, but isn't there still some question on whether or not the Jenny Guzzi pictured on the real estate site is believed to be JD/MMD/JLG/JC? I thought other pics posted here of Jen/Michele looked different, and that the suspicion was that JD/MMD/JLG/JC might just be using that name as an alias. Also, have we linked "Real Estate Guzzi" to the known address in Levittown or anything else *besides* using the same name?
Also, I should point out this post from earlier in the thread:
I shipped something to her "mom" a Ginny Davis at the Levittown, NY address just a couple weeks ago. With all the names bouncing around, there's nothing to say Ginny exists or that is her real name, but it is food for thought before chasing the "Sharyn Guzzi" idea.
I'm not trying to argue, just have been following these threads for a while and am trying to keep everything clear in my mind. :)
Morgan Pfaff

Sweet Defense
02-11-2011, 05:34 PM
I am sorry my name is Tammy Rogers and I will not hijack this thread with any further thoughts


Oh, no, that's not what anyone is saying, we just need your real name (which you have now provided). I do agree with your statement that we have to make sure that they're the right people before filing anything official against them. Also, any complaints filed against them through their professional boards must be by the people involved in the complaint, otherwise it's worse than hearsay and not going to be investigated. Also, if the medical board is anything to judge by, I wouldn't hold my breath that it will be investigated.

Sweet Defense
02-11-2011, 05:35 PM
Actually, I think Tammy (onekindacowboy) might have a point. I'm just trying to clarify on what Mary (fatvole) has posted, but isn't there still some question on whether or not the Jenny Guzzi pictured on the real estate site is believed to be JD/MMD/JLG/JC? I thought other pics posted here of Jen/Michele looked different, and that the suspicion was that JD/MMD/JLG/JC might just be using that name as an alias. Also, have we linked "Real Estate Guzzi" to the known address in Levittown or anything else *besides* using the same name?
Also, I should point out this post from earlier in the thread: With all the names bouncing around, there's nothing to say Ginny exists or that is her real name, but it is food for thought before chasing the "Sharyn Guzzi" idea.
I'm not trying to argue, just have been following these threads for a while and am trying to keep everything clear in my mind. :)
Morgan Pfaff

Also, people can take other people's identies and names. Not saying that happened here, but it certainly can happen.

mobyus
02-11-2011, 05:38 PM
I forgot to mention that Mary's discovery of the weapon permit IS very odd - I think there was info posted earlier in the thread that "Real Estate Guzzi" took the last name Tsicalos via a recent marriage? If so, WHY would her mom be getting a permit using her daughter's married last name? I admit I had dismissed the real estate link as an unlikely coincidence or stolen alias, but this latest info does make me pause and rethink.

fatvole
02-11-2011, 05:43 PM
Actually, I think Tammy (onekindacowboy) might have a point. I'm just trying to clarify on what Mary (fatvole) has posted, but isn't there still some question on whether or not the Jenny Guzzi pictured on the real estate site is believed to be JD/MMD/JLG/JC? I thought other pics posted here of Jen/Michele looked different, and that the suspicion was that JD/MMD/JLG/JC might just be using that name as an alias. Also, have we linked "Real Estate Guzzi" to the known address in Levittown or anything else *besides* using the same name?
Also, I should point out this post from earlier in the thread: With all the names bouncing around, there's nothing to say Ginny exists or that is her real name, but it is food for thought before chasing the "Sharyn Guzzi" idea.
I'm not trying to argue, just have been following these threads for a while and am trying to keep everything clear in my mind. :)
Morgan Pfaff

True dat. My brain hurts. I'm glad it was all summarized in the first post, and keeps being added to!

I got the names to link with the real estate people, from reading the 'fight on the other board' that was referenced in the first post of THIS board (going through the LI horse people/hampton shows etc.). Yes, it could be other people, but the addresses, names, sitches and other information from the actual incidents all seem to be aligning a little too curiously to not at least explore it. If nothing else, we could tell this person that their identity is being used.

bronzino
02-11-2011, 06:12 PM
I'm just zipping in here - too busy right now to read the foregoing, but to err on the side of caution, in case anybody is misunderstanding:

*PLEASE DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT* write people's licensing boards and complain about them. Just don't do it. If you are mistaken, you may interfere with bona fide income and be liable. So please do not touch this area of anyone's life.

I personally do not believe that the Jenny Guzzi referenced on that real estate site is the person we have come to know as Jennifer Davis. Whether I am correct, I do not know. But if I'm not sure, I doubt any of you can be, either.

fatvole
02-11-2011, 06:16 PM
And just to make this even MORE fun..."Sharyn Elaine Guzzi" and "Sharon Evans Guzzi" are also apparently the same person. It's Evans on facebook, with links to photos and FB *allegedly* of our JD/JG/MMD/JC on her wall, but it's Elaine on the New York State Mortgage Loan Originator activity page, all linking back to the same photos and Long Island Horse Properties. Her license says "Sharyn E Guzzi."

I'm going to stop now, this is too much! I think Sara is doing a wonderful thing trying to help the International buyers, and for my own interests, I am NEVER going to do business with anyone from remotely this area unless I have corroboration from people I actually know! Sheesh!!

bronzino
02-11-2011, 06:20 PM
And just to make this even MORE fun..."Sharyn Elaine Guzzi" and "Sharon Evans Guzzi" are also apparently the same person. It's Evans on facebook, with links to photos and FB *allegedly* of our JD/JG/MMD/JC on her wall, but it's Elaine on the New York State Mortgage Loan Originator activity page, all linking back to the same photos and Long Island Horse Properties. Her license says "Sharyn E Guzzi."

Just to quickly make this point - there is nothing illegitimate about the foregoing. There are lots of people who alternate between middle name and maiden names, and there are women who swap first and middle names, for various reasons. There is IMO no reason to think that these people have any connection to Jennifer Davis. I think she may have been in the horse scene, possibly heard their names and copped part of one of their names. So please don't drag these folks into this. :)

Mary
02-11-2011, 07:19 PM
There is clearly a real person named Jenny Guzzi living on Long Island not far from the address JD et. al. have used - but the same address(es) never comes up. She is not a low profile person, a simple google turns up a lot of hits. Those hits do not turn up the name Jennylee, just Jenny. The real-person Jenny Guzzi is a horse person. Other than that, when I looked into her as thoroughly as the internet offered, I found no real evidence that this is the same person as JD. Or even that they are acquainted. But there is no way for me to know.

There are a lot of Jennifers/Jennys/Jens in the world. It's probably passed 'Mary' as 'most common girl's name.' ;)

And fwiw ... this info was offered several pages back with photos during the photo comparison. You can see some details there. :) IMO the photos are a red herring. It doesn't matter what internet photos show. The internet is filled with flotsam and jetsam that can be indefinite, misleading and insignificant. The photos and other flotsam have nothing to do with hobby transactions. Only the transaction details matter. Just my pov. :)

DraytonWoods
02-11-2011, 07:50 PM
... I think that Eliz is right and there's way too much fun being had with playing investigator here. People'd better be ironclad damn sure before going after other people. I have baddddd feelings about this guys!

fatvole
02-11-2011, 08:00 PM
Just to quickly make this point - there is nothing illegitimate about the foregoing. There are lots of people who alternate between middle name and maiden names, and there are women who swap first and middle names, for various reasons. There is IMO no reason to think that these people have any connection to Jennifer Davis. I think she may have been in the horse scene, possibly heard their names and copped part of one of their names. So please don't drag these folks into this. :)

Yes, my partner does it, goes by her middle name, and she goes by her 'born as' for official documents, contracts, etc. But she doesn't CHANGE them into something else entirely.

Sorry, I guess I'm influenced by knowing Sheriffs deputies -- changing a *middle* name, particularly with the same initial (not counting possible maiden names/etc) starts to run up the red flag.

I am not advocating AT ALL that anyone do any kind of contact to ANY licensing board *at this time.* This is all POSSIBLE information that ties in. This is all information that was found easily on-line. This is also all information that the postal inspector or other investigating authorities will find on their own and use as a starting point, whether to clear or confirm any person's involvement. For myself, I personally have my suspicions and know where I'm placing my bets -- "all using the same computer" at the beginning of this thread was good enough for me!

jasper978
02-11-2011, 08:31 PM
Can anyone look up who owns the P.O. Box she uses? I have the number and zip code. PM me if you are able. I recall a couple of Postal workers or family members on the board.

ramiethepeep
02-11-2011, 09:14 PM
Getting hung up on the various names is, IMO, a pretty epic waste of time. Whatever her real name is, she has a magician's hat of names to pick from; all of them names that are either bog-common or vaguely related to someone you know. For instance, in the thread about the Lonestars sold overseas, she (Michelle McGarth-Davis at the time) said they were with a prepper in California, named Jane Schneider. Apparently the real Jane Schneider isn't currently active in the hobby and doesn't live in California - but people knew the *name* and didn't investigate further, and so it slipped by.

Forget about the name - names, at this point there are too many to keep track of - and remember the address. Addresses, in this case, since there's a work address involved. It doesn't matter if you address mail to Michelle, Mickey Mouse or the Green Power Ranger, the Post Office doesn't care, it goes to the address. I'd be willing to bet my savings that the PO box that's popped up in the last few pages was acquired very recently, as a result of this thread. If people are smart, they will go 'Gee, a Post Office box in Levittown? I think maybe I'll ask for some references first!'

muggyscugglemeyer
02-11-2011, 09:22 PM
Can anyone look up who owns the P.O. Box she uses? I have the number and zip code. PM me if you are able. I recall a couple of Postal workers or family members on the board.

Unfortunately, that's info that can't be given out. It would require a letter from a District Justice, visit from the Sheriff or State Police or something along those lines.

SylvanTrails
02-11-2011, 10:43 PM
It doesn't matter if you address mail to Michelle, Mickey Mouse or the Green Power Ranger, the Post Office doesn't care, it goes to the address. I'd be willing to bet my savings that the PO box that's popped up in the last few pages was acquired very recently, as a result of this thread. If people are smart, they will go 'Gee, a Post Office box in Levittown? I think maybe I'll ask for some references first!'

Aaah, but if they are a postman worth their salt, it would matter. Name on the box/envelope doesn't match anyone (or the business) at that address and they should be checking it out.

anniemare
02-11-2011, 10:59 PM
Not necessarily. I still get mail for the people who used to live here, and my ex-roommate, and my ex husband and my DAD of all things. It all gets put un the box. And my delivery person is made of win.

Sweet Defense
02-11-2011, 11:14 PM
Not necessarily. I still get mail for the people who used to live here, and my ex-roommate, and my ex husband and my DAD of all things. It all gets put un the box. And my delivery person is made of win.

Same here. They don't get into who lives where, they just deliver to the address on the envelope. Also have a great carrier.

Kristi Hale
02-12-2011, 12:06 AM
EDIT: Never mind, I'm a moran. LOL

jasper978
02-12-2011, 12:08 AM
I'd be willing to bet my savings that the PO box that's popped up in the last few pages was acquired very recently, as a result of this thread. If people are smart, they will go 'Gee, a Post Office box in Levittown? I think maybe I'll ask for some references first!'

This was received in the middle of January, so it couldn't have been a result of this thread, but perhaps based on other scammer warning threads. So, if anyone knows any less than worthy postal workers who would research a PO BOX address ownership status, then I'll turn over the box number on my MO and envelope.

Mary
02-12-2011, 01:04 AM
Anyone who wants to check for a match can pm Liz/bronzino or self or any of the mods. We have several addresses that were used, as given by these identities to hobbyists who have let us know about them, and will be glad to check. The information here, as mentioned, is actually a gathering of common elements from several hobbyists with dealings.

But again, so far the simple path is the best protection in this case ... Levittown has been the most frequent, and to date there is not another hobbyist who is a true separate person who has emerged there. Same for Farmingdale. If it's one of those two communities, check further before committing. If it's on Long Island, I myself would find someone to vouch for the person before committing.


[I also am getting mail from a former user of my po box. It's a business. They outsource their payroll. How do I know? The outsourcing company sent the monthly payroll run to ME, registered letter. That is, the company name but my po box. Good heavens.] [And I once lived in an apartment and was getting mail for at least 3 other previous tenants. :tsktsk ]

Sweet Defense
02-12-2011, 01:07 AM
I get tax papers for one of the people who used to live in our house. Oops. I suspect they haven't paid taxes in years on their property in Austin Co. Since they misrepresented the house and put in some built-ins that nearly ruined our walls (screws and major glue, really??), I really can't make myself feel all that bad.

Drakkarstudios
02-12-2011, 02:39 AM
I get mail of all kinds. Cedit card apps, bills, attorney things, and more all for about 5 previous residents of my house. We think there was an illegal family living here cause the names are really kind of varying as in no matching last names.

BearsnBugs
02-12-2011, 11:48 AM
After 12 yrs in this house, I'm suddenly getting mail for the previous resident's mother. We got his mail now and again - mostly weapon and police gear catalogs. Haven't gotten those in several years. Now, I'm getting her AARP and State Farm mail. Somewhere, someone has Opsie living here.

NatalieK
02-12-2011, 12:00 PM
After 12 yrs in this house, I'm suddenly getting mail for the previous resident's mother. We got his mail now and again - mostly weapon and police gear catalogs. Haven't gotten those in several years. Now, I'm getting her AARP and State Farm mail. Somewhere, someone has Opsie living here.

*yanks weapons catalogs* I'll take those.

spookhorse01
02-12-2011, 12:03 PM
I get mail of all kinds. Cedit card apps, bills, attorney things, and more all for about 5 previous residents of my house. We think there was an illegal family living here cause the names are really kind of varying as in no matching last names.

Not necessarily the case- we have stuff coming here for 3 different last names between 4 people (Hayden - SO, de Waal -self and daughter, and Kiefel - son) and sometimes I get stuff in my maiden name (Kiefel) and my ex-married name (Andrews). Occasionally we still get things for my SOs step-dad (no freakin' clue WHY, he has never lived here), prior residents, and also for former owners of the property. We look like we're running a boarding house if you would go by the mail we receive LOL

SylvanTrails
02-12-2011, 12:12 PM
Are ya'll getting First Class mail for other people or just Bulk mail? Because there is a difference. You should NOT get First Class for anyone but the people who are supposed to live in that house. The Bulk mail does go to "or current resident", that's why we get mail for "Ed Team" (my FIL's junk mail name), it's all junk mail, not First Class. First Class would either be forwarded or returned to sender.

That's why, if you are visiting someone and someone sends you a letter, they are supposed to put c/o whoever you're staying with.

If payments are being sent to whoever this person really is, she's put in some weird change of addresses in the system.

Sorry, I wasn't particularly clear about that.

White_Horse
02-12-2011, 12:55 PM
Are ya'll getting First Class mail for other people or just Bulk mail? Because there is a difference. You should NOT get First Class for anyone but the people who are supposed to live in that house. The Bulk mail does go to "or current resident", that's why we get mail for "Ed Team" (my FIL's junk mail name), it's all junk mail, not First Class. First Class would either be forwarded or returned to sender.

That's why, if you are visiting someone and someone sends you a letter, they are supposed to put c/o whoever you're staying with.

If payments are being sent to whoever this person really is, she's put in some weird change of addresses in the system.

Sorry, I wasn't particularly clear about that.

I can vouch that some of it is first class mail. Just on Thursday I got a card for who I suspect was a previous owner (birthday card I think). We've been here 6 years now. I put "no such person at this address, return to sender" on it and stuck it back in the mailbox. It wasn't addressed to the people we bought from, I think it might have been the couple before them. The owners we bought from didn't do a good job of notifying anyone that they moved and while it has calmed down now for awhile we were getting a lot of mail for them (tax notices, school notices, etc). It was not bulk mail, it was first class stuff. A lot of it slowed when I was regularly writing "no longer at this address, return to sender on it" and sending it back.

DraytonWoods
02-12-2011, 01:39 PM
When I lived in apartments, other people's mail was a way of life!

Heck, just the other day I got junk mail for a roommate my mom had very briefly in like '95-'96. What???

Sweet Defense
02-12-2011, 01:54 PM
I'm thinking that tax bills are First Class mail, so yes, we get First Class. I don't think they check the names on our mail because my mom has 3 different last names (maiden, maiden-married hyphenated, married) and our names get mangled all the time with weird spellings. The house next door has a huge Indian multi-generational group, so they have at least 5 last names and mixed names (we got their entire stack of mail once by accident). So, it doesn't necessarily have to be someone illegal to have lots of names living in a house, all it takes is several generations, which will happen more and more often as people find it's cheaper to share a house (we do).

MBPearls
02-12-2011, 06:09 PM
Chiming in really late here, but in the first post there is mention of "Miller" as being used in a post by Jenn/Michelle/JennyLee. I could be wrong here, but back around the time of that post, there was a core of hobbyists in the WOYM forum that used the term "miller" to describe a significant other (or each other, we were the "millers", leading to the emote :randommil (even named "random miller", or "randommil" as it were).

Though I can see how it fits in with everything, it seems more a coincidence than anything. Just don't want to see people digging up threads with all the random milling and trying to link everyone to Jenn/Michelle/JennyLee. :haha

bronzino
02-12-2011, 08:01 PM
I get mail of all kinds. Cedit card apps, bills, attorney things, and more all for about 5 previous residents of my house.

Same. I don't know that there is too much that can be done though. The only person who would know the difference is my carrier, and she is just too busy to resort the mail at every house. The companies sending this stuff don't do their own mailings, so writing them and stating "return to sender" is ineffective. What a waste.

Mary T - your statement re restraint with the guzzi family is appreciated. Thanks. :)

Mary
02-12-2011, 08:57 PM
Are ya'll getting First Class mail for other people or just Bulk mail? Because there is a difference. You should NOT get First Class for anyone but the people who are supposed to live in that house. The Bulk mail does go to "or current resident", that's why we get mail for "Ed Team" (my FIL's junk mail name), it's all junk mail, not First Class. First Class would either be forwarded or returned to sender.

Please excuse me Shannon, this isn't aimed at you, but ...
:lmao :roflmao :laff

I've lived in 6 cities in 5 states. I never had a postal delivery person that gave a damn about the name on the letter. If my address is on it, I get it, no matter who it is addressed to. Personal business, personal correspondence, bills, whatever, definitely not bulk mail.

In fact at a previous residence with the absolute barrel-scrapings of a post office delivering I regularly got mail addressed to people a block over because the addresses were somewhat similar - but not the same, and the name not similar at all. I got their financial statements for their investment accounts, several times, even though it was addressed correctly and I was not that address OR name. I accidentally opened the first one because as the only resident at my address I don't look at who mail is addressed to, I just open everything. My eyes popped when I saw what it was. I then knew something about their financial status that the general public should not have been exposed to. Because the post office was delivering their mail to a name and address other than the address given. Spoke to the post office, about as helpful as hollering down a well.

The business mail coming to my PO box right now, addressed to TCP Services, I regularly return to the postal employees marked "not at this address." I have spoken with them about it. Makes no difference, I still get it. I get their registered mail signature required! And I signed for one because I didn't expect I was getting something not for me - and the counter worker did not catch it either! Now of course I check and refuse them (the counter person does not check who is signing.) And ... still I get their mail. I'll bet hard cash money that none of it except maybe the registered mail is being returned to the senders, because the same senders keep sending it to what is now my po box. Although I would have thought the refused-signature mail would get their attention. But, even though my name is not TCP Services I get their mail in my po box.

Sorry! /end of my part of the derail about the post office delivery

SylvanTrails
02-12-2011, 10:12 PM
Just to totally derail the thread...I'm now getting SPAM in my email inbox from Jennifer Davis, wanting me to work for her typing. :roflmao

I've gotten at least TWO emails today. :laff

(Sorry, back to your regularly scheduled thread.)

Edit: And, to add to the PO thing...I guess with so much of it being automated these days, there isn't the same level of quality control on the names. Back in the day (:laff), I didn't "officially" work for the USPS, just a summer hire on Base in Germany in the mailroom at school in college, but the goal at both places was to be fast AND accurate. If you have the same people doing the mail every day for the same section, you'd get to know who "owned" which box...I'm not kidding when I say I WAS fast and accurate...to the point that I'd be stuffing PO boxes and see "George Miller" and say "oh, yeah, George is no longer in box 658, he's now in 123"...and move it where it needs to go. Granted the college mailroom had 800 mailboxes, but the PO boxes on base were much larger than that. (Haven't done it in YEARS, don't know what it would take for me to get to that level again.)

cherrywood
02-12-2011, 10:22 PM
Lets see we get mail for.....


My grandmother who passed away in 2001 and NEVER lived here.
The previous owner who passed away in 2005?
Her offspring/relatives who live down the street (no joke on this one)

I pretty much come to the conclusion that most carriers are just trying to get through the delivery route as fast as possible. I will say that the counter PO works actually do check the names on sig req packages here though.

Mary
02-12-2011, 10:47 PM
Just to totally derail the thread...I'm now getting SPAM in my email inbox from Jennifer Davis, wanting me to work for her typing. :roflmao

I've gotten at least TWO emails today. :laff

(Sorry, back to your regularly scheduled thread.)Wait - JD is the regularly scheduled thread! :lol Are you serious? Do you know her personally - why would she want you to type for her? Course you only have to share what you want to. :)

MustangGina
02-15-2011, 09:09 AM
I get mail (tax notices, etc) for someone who lived in my house briefly sometime around it's inital building in about 1987 and also for random neighbors. I don't think our post office cares. If it has my street address on it, I'll get it.

maryheeringa
02-15-2011, 01:16 PM
All I can say is WOW..I should check this board more often! It was a lot of reading all morning but very interesting.Why would someone do this just to stay in touch with the model horse collectors..I DO think she is "sick" and has a problem.This is unreal! WOW is all I can say! Mary Heeringa

More Spots
02-19-2011, 12:17 PM
I am waiting for over a year to get my money back from Michelle Mc Grath-Davis. I am sure I was frauded even I got back a part of the 300$ I have paid.It was all so mysterious that 3 Lonstars she sold never arrived mine included.
Greetings Uschi

Enchanted Equines
02-19-2011, 02:19 PM
We have been in our house for almost 8 years now (or will it be 9?) and we still receive mail for the original owner,Mr. Moneypenny,who has been dead for over 30 years!

onekindacowboy
02-19-2011, 05:58 PM
risking a derail here but Mr Moneypenny is such a cool name that people probably just can't bear to delete it from their records Tammy Rogers

solticeart
02-19-2011, 07:42 PM
yea.. was that really his name? lol I have never heard that name before.. so yea.. you should now change your last name to moneypenny just because...

airen
02-19-2011, 08:52 PM
Never seen a James Bond movie?

solticeart
02-19-2011, 10:10 PM
no not many really.. maybe an old one years ago...lol

Enchanted Equines
02-20-2011, 12:11 AM
Yep,his name was James Moneypenny and apparently he was a teamster cause some of the mail are teamsters newsletters and magazines.Randy has also just informed me there was a James Bond movie character with the same last name,but Ive never seen the movie...............
I also know that he liked to golf,because our other neighbor said he would sit on the back screened porch and polish his golf shoes religiously.

Mary
02-20-2011, 10:36 AM
Mod note
K guys, for this thread, we are asking not to derail any further. Just because this is a subject that is affecting a lot of people.

We have chat for conversations you'll enjoy! (http://www.modelhorseblab.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?115-BLAB-CHAT) (pd members) Thanks!

Artistikchick
02-26-2011, 03:37 AM
Huh. . .well, this sure explains a LOT! I didn't get scammed but my most recent contact with her was in 2008 when she contacted me to find out about getting her resin back. She'd sent it to me in 2006 for repairs (which I did for free. . .grumble) and then disappeared until 2008 when she popped out of nowhere and became adamant about getting the horse back in a hurry and got downright snippy when I didn't hop to and make it so right away. I'm afraid I wasn't in any big rush after she'd dropped out of sight for so long. <shrugs> Anyhow, the horse was shipped to the Farmingdale work address and I never heard from her again.
Kathi

Jacquie
03-07-2011, 02:17 PM
Hate to drag this bad boy up again, but I just saw this on the MHHR and I think it's relevant...same MO as the aforementioned aliases and from the same city...

SHE HAS WENT BY BOTH SPELLINGS OF HER LAST NAME. SHE IS FROM LEVITTOWN NY.

IT IS OFFICAL THAT JORDANA MICHEL/MICHAEL HAS STOLEN MY MONEY!!! FOR NOT SENDING MY LORD OF THE RING RESIN!

I AM SO ANGRY I COULD SCREAM. I LIVE ON SOCIAL SECURITY AND I SCRAPED TO GET THAT MONEY TO BUY MY HOLY GRAIL RESIN. I CANT AFFORD TO LOOSE THAT MUCH MONEY!

SHE REQUIRED ME TO SEND HER A MONEY ORDER TO PAY FOR THE LORD OF THE RING RESIN WHICH I DID BACK IN JAN.

IT WAS RETURNED TO ME THE FIRST TIME DUE TO A MIX UP ON HER END AT HER POST OFFICE BOX. I THEN RESENT IT AND SHE RECEIVED ON JAN 22 AND CASHED IT ON JAN 26 AND SHE WAS SUPPOSED TO MAIL OUT THE RESIN THAT DAY.

SINCE THEN SHE HAS NOT RESPONDED TO MY EMAILS. NOR HAS SHE SENT MY RESIN. SHE HAS STOLEN MY MONEY. I GOT THE POSTAL MONEY INQUIRY BACK TODAY THAT SHE IN DEED CASHED IT.

JORDANA I WILL BE PURSUING LEGAL ACTION AGAINST YOU!

THERE IS AT LEAST ONE OTHER WELL KNOW COLLECTER SHE CHEATED ALSO. THERE MAYBE MORE.

IF ANYONE KNOWS HER OR HOW TO GET AHOLD OF HER PLEASE CONTACT ME.

THANK YOU!
RANDI BRAZIL

NatalieK
03-07-2011, 02:20 PM
Oh my god I saw that post from Randi and didn't even put two and two together!!

http://modelhorsesalespages.com/sales/view_details.asp?id=834483

White_Horse
03-07-2011, 02:33 PM
Oh my god I saw that post from Randi and didn't even put two and two together!!

http://modelhorsesalespages.com/sales/view_details.asp?id=834483

Randi just posted to MHHR about Jordana Michel or Jordana Michael from Levittown, NY. I came here right away going "isn't that were what's her name is from".

john
03-07-2011, 02:33 PM
I saw the post too, and came straight here to post about it. I am going to email Randi and let her know where to find this thread so she'll know what's happened and may be able to get together with the others involved in this, and get a resolution. I hope.


Hate to drag this bad boy up again, but I just saw this on the MHHR and I think it's relevant...same MO as the aforementioned aliases and from the same city...

SHE HAS WENT BY BOTH SPELLINGS OF HER LAST NAME. SHE IS FROM LEVITTOWN NY.

IT IS OFFICAL THAT JORDANA MICHEL/MICHAEL HAS STOLEN MY MONEY!!! FOR NOT SENDING MY LORD OF THE RING RESIN!

I AM SO ANGRY I COULD SCREAM. I LIVE ON SOCIAL SECURITY AND I SCRAPED TO GET THAT MONEY TO BUY MY HOLY GRAIL RESIN. I CANT AFFORD TO LOOSE THAT MUCH MONEY!

SHE REQUIRED ME TO SEND HER A MONEY ORDER TO PAY FOR THE LORD OF THE RING RESIN WHICH I DID BACK IN JAN.

IT WAS RETURNED TO ME THE FIRST TIME DUE TO A MIX UP ON HER END AT HER POST OFFICE BOX. I THEN RESENT IT AND SHE RECEIVED ON JAN 22 AND CASHED IT ON JAN 26 AND SHE WAS SUPPOSED TO MAIL OUT THE RESIN THAT DAY.

SINCE THEN SHE HAS NOT RESPONDED TO MY EMAILS. NOR HAS SHE SENT MY RESIN. SHE HAS STOLEN MY MONEY. I GOT THE POSTAL MONEY INQUIRY BACK TODAY THAT SHE IN DEED CASHED IT.

JORDANA I WILL BE PURSUING LEGAL ACTION AGAINST YOU!

THERE IS AT LEAST ONE OTHER WELL KNOW COLLECTER SHE CHEATED ALSO. THERE MAYBE MORE.

IF ANYONE KNOWS HER OR HOW TO GET AHOLD OF HER PLEASE CONTACT ME.

THANK YOU!
RANDI BRAZIL

ramiethepeep
03-07-2011, 02:48 PM
I gotta wonder, are people asking for refs before sending off so much money? It sure seems like this woman could have saved herself from some heartache. This is a name we haven't heard before, ipso facto I have severe suspicions that there wouldn't be even one reputable hobbyist out there to greenlight 'Jordana'. :sigh

NatalieK
03-07-2011, 02:54 PM
I posted the link for Randi on her Facebook page. Being that Randi is someone I did a trade with I highly respect her, so she should be able to get in here and comment, as well.

tabletopstudios
03-07-2011, 02:57 PM
I didn't turn up any transaction accounts on Jordana searching MHHR, but did find another person looking for references on Jordana Michaell back in December. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MHHR/message/71795

I hope Randi shares the email address with us and confirms if the PO Box info matches the known info for JD/MMD/JG. Also, Randi refers to another person who was scammed by Jordana--I hope that person shares their information publicly too. The more people who know what is going on and can band together, the better.

Kim Haymond

Ponygirl
03-07-2011, 03:16 PM
What kind of confuses me on this, though, is...how is she able to cash/deposit a MO if it's not her real name? Is that possible? My PO has me get out my ID, checks name against the MO, and writes down the driver's license number on the MO itself when I cash it there.

NatalieK
03-07-2011, 03:34 PM
What kind of confuses me on this, though, is...how is she able to cash/deposit a MO if it's not her real name? Is that possible? My PO has me get out my ID, checks name against the MO, and writes down the driver's license number on the MO itself when I cash it there.

I would think using a friend's name would help in this situation, someone not related to the model horse hobby.

Jacquie
03-07-2011, 03:41 PM
We have seedy little check cashing places that often don't ask for ID. They get their percentage and don't ask questions.

fatvole
03-07-2011, 04:39 PM
All I can say is - always keep all receipts, including the one from the MO, until the transaction is done. You can trace it through the company, and find out who cashed it.

I myself, speaking personally, as far as transactions, am redlining upstate New York in the Levittown/Smithtown area (where name searches are turning up Jennylee Guzzi including her alias of "Jenny Tsicalos") unless I can completely verify a person's existence.

Their business is "Long Island Horse Properties" and Jenny Guzzi has a phone number and email listed right on it. Yes, they could certainly be having their identities stolen, but I'm personally (speaking only for myself here) firmly in the walks-like-a-duck-quacks-like-a-duck camp, particularly with just too many coincidinks lining up...

Good luck to Randi and continuing good luck to everyone else here. I suggest in the future using "Peoplefinders" (the service I use at the hospital here for follow-up tracking) before finalizing a transaction. The names "Jordana Michel" and "Jordana Michael" have absolutely no presence in NY, according to it.

RBrazil
03-07-2011, 05:21 PM
Hi this is Randi,

She posted her ad for the resins on Haynet using this email jordana@****.com [MOD EDIT of email address}

The address she gave me to mail the money order was:

My address is
Jordana Michel
PO Box 151
Levittown, NY 11756
She used this email address with me at first [MOD EDIT .. OP gave the incorrect address]
On Jan 14 I got this email from her. I blocked out the other collectors name as I do not have her permission

***** & Randi...

I'm sending this email as I'm standing in the post office, inquiring about the money orders each of you sent (Boreas for ***** & LOTR for Randi). I'm SO so sorry - apparently the post office has been 'rejecting' mail at that PO Box after I put a hold on my mail two weeks ago when I went on vacation (so that it wouldn't build up in my teeny PO Box). I have since corrected this problem, but they are unsure if the letters have been returned to you or not.

You're both probably cringing right now..I would be, or rather - I am too! If it does come back to you, and you are still interested in the resin, please re-send them...I will enclose a refund of $15 to each of you, in the box with your horse for the inconvenience/mailing fees, etc. If you choose to pass the sale up, I do understand, and if I do receive your money orders, I will mail them back the same day via Priority Mail.

Gosh, I do apologize. :( Please let me know what you'd like to do. I do thank you for having patience with me!

Sincerely,
Jordana

And then all of a sudden on Jan 20 she sent me a new email address.

from Jordana Michel <jordanamichel88@******.com>
to rbrazil@gmail.com
date Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 1:42 PM
subject Hi Randi, it's Jordana!
mailed-by gmail.com
signed-by gmail.com

Jan 20

Hey Randi,
So I just wanted to check in - I dumped (well, I'm in the process of dumping!) my mail.com accoutn. It was just too unreliable, and now it's giving me an error when logging in. And their solution: send us an email! Haha! How can I send an email if I can't log into my account???

So anyhow, I'm on gmail now. Just wanted to give you a heads up. I'll let you know when the money order comes in, and I'll send your resin boy right out - and the refund out to you directly.

:)
Thanks!
Jordana

Then on Jan 26th she emailed me

Jordana Michel
to me

Jan 26

Hey Randi!

Yes - I'm so sorry, I haven't been feeling well lately, and just received my laptop back today, so I have easier acess to the computer.
My hubby picked it up on Saturday, and I deposited it today. I should have NO problem shipping your big guy this afternoon....its currently snowing pretty bad, but really I should have no probelm getting him out.

Could you send the email address for your painter, so I don't have to fight with mail.com to access my inbox?

I'll email you either late tonight (I don't get home till after 10) or first thing in the AM with the tracking info.
:)

Thank you!
Jordana

That is the last time I heard from her. Now mind you I didn't post all the emails back and forth as there are so many. But those are the emails she used with me and the po box she gave and the other collector to mail the money orders too. I will tell the other collector that you would like her to post her information here as well. she will be back on later tonight. I hope we can nail this (you don't want to know the word I call her) to the wall and press charges and possibly get our money back. I live on soc sec and I cant afford to loose this much money. LOTR was a grail resin for me and I scaped up and did without stuff just to pay for it.

Thanks
Randi

john
03-07-2011, 05:27 PM
Randi, my wife and I both send a big :hugg to you. So sorry this happened to you. Wonder how many more alias names this person has? :wow

TraceyK
03-07-2011, 05:42 PM
Randi, my wife and I both send a big :hugg to you. So sorry this happened to you. Wonder how many more alias names this person has? :wow

:yeahthat :hugg

Tracey Keeling

fatvole
03-07-2011, 05:43 PM
"I'm SO so sorry - apparently the post office has been 'rejecting' mail at that PO Box after I put a hold on my mail two weeks ago when I went on vacation (so that it wouldn't build up in my teeny PO Box)."

BEE. ESS! Our postal peepz have held our mail countless times, it's not like they keep jamming it in the PO mailbox! You tell them how long to hold it for, they enter it in the system, then they hold it at the PO that services your address (in the back), however much or little comes in, and you come get it at the end of the period. A two week hold is nothing new or unusual. They don't 'reject' anything, they hold every piece that comes in. We've come back to little tiny stacks, and to three great big rubber-banded packs of mail, it just depends how much comes in.

Man, this is unreal.

john
03-07-2011, 05:51 PM
Aw man... just saw on MHHR that a good hobby friend of mine was also ripped off by the Jordana alias. :sad I emailed this thread link to them immediately after seeing the MHHR post in my inbox, hopefully they'll pop over here and I'm really hoping everyone can get together who's been ripped off and get something done about the situation. This makes me so disgusted. :bluerant

fatvole
03-07-2011, 05:59 PM
Trying to work backwards into the problem -- talked to my local PO guru, they say the only way to confirm the identity of someone who is renting a particular PO box is with a court order. So a case would have to be filed even to pass 'go' as far as that's concerned. But it was interesting info.

RBrazil
03-07-2011, 06:09 PM
I am so sorry the deserteagle email is not one that she used. I dont know how to take it out of my post. Can the mods please delete that email address for me in that post.

Randi

NatalieK
03-07-2011, 06:10 PM
I am so sorry the deserteagle email is not one that she used. I dont know how to take it out of my post. Can the mods please delete that email address for me in that post.

Randi

Click on the Exclamation Point in the triangle on the post you want to report.

RBrazil
03-07-2011, 06:21 PM
That doesnt let me edit my post. it is to report abusive posts. :(

NatalieK
03-07-2011, 06:28 PM
Yes, I know, it will report it to the mods so they can make the change you want. Just write in the comment box what you want changed.

ramiethepeep
03-07-2011, 07:28 PM
MOD NOTE Per TTB policy, full email addresses (and other personal information) may not be shared. However, I have gotten sufficiently irritated with this particular bad egg that I've chosen to redact only the domains of the email addresses. I may be over-ruled after the other mods discuss - they aren't online at the moment. For further emphasis, this is NOT standard TTB policy.

muggyscugglemeyer
03-07-2011, 07:45 PM
"I'm SO so sorry - apparently the post office has been 'rejecting' mail at that PO Box after I put a hold on my mail two weeks ago when I went on vacation (so that it wouldn't build up in my teeny PO Box)."

BEE. ESS! Our postal peepz have held our mail countless times, it's not like they keep jamming it in the PO mailbox! You tell them how long to hold it for, they enter it in the system, then they hold it at the PO that services your address (in the back), however much or little comes in, and you come get it at the end of the period. A two week hold is nothing new or unusual. They don't 'reject' anything, they hold every piece that comes in. We've come back to little tiny stacks, and to three great big rubber-banded packs of mail, it just depends how much comes in.

Man, this is unreal.

My guess would be that the Jordana name was not listed on the PO box as a recipient for mail there. That would be why the MO's were returned. Usually, when the letters are returned they will be stamped "Insufficient Address" or "Attempted Not Known". Once she realized the MO's had been sent back, it's a piece of cake to go to the post office and say "Oh, so-and-so also gets mail at this box."

That's my guess.

Margaret Loesch

hi_d_hi
03-07-2011, 10:10 PM
I gotta wonder, are people asking for refs before sending off so much money? It sure seems like this woman could have saved herself from some heartache. This is a name we haven't heard before, ipso facto I have severe suspicions that there wouldn't be even one reputable hobbyist out there to greenlight 'Jordana'. :sigh

I too gotta shake my head on that one as well. There are no lights, no info on that person at all on MHHR. I personally do not deal with anyone not on MHHR or someone who can't give me names of ppl they know in the hobby that can back them up. This is sad.

jasper978
03-07-2011, 10:26 PM
Hi this is Randi,

She posted her ad for the resins on Haynet using this email jordana@****.com [MOD EDIT of email address}

The address she gave me to mail the money order was:

My address is
Jordana Michel
PO Box 151
Levittown, NY 11756
She used this email address with me at first [MOD EDIT .. OP gave the incorrect address]
On Jan 14 I got this email from her. I blocked out the other collectors name as I do not have her permission

***** & Randi...


Sitting here looking at the envelope that had the MO "Jules Charon" sent me in January for sleep aid from Kroger, and it is a PO Box 151/ Levittown, NY 11756


Jackie Hasser

jasper978
03-07-2011, 10:29 PM
I wonder if the vaction was before or after she was injured and supposedly pregnant?

fatvole
03-08-2011, 01:47 AM
Ladies and gentlemen, it is time to PROSECUTE. You have MORE than enough evidence now. Everyone get together, update the excellent timeline from the start of this thread. Everyone collect their evidence, make copies (envelopes, etc., excellent!). It is time to go to the DISTRICT ATTORNEY, as well as the Postal Inspector. Enough is enough. Nobody will be victims anymore. Someone who was defrauded needs to spearhead this. I will be happy to offer my involvement as far as seeking out the phantom prepper in San Diego.

Tin Pony Studio
03-08-2011, 02:51 AM
Hello,
I was the other person that got scammed by Jordana. And stupid me, I had that bad gut feeling not to buy from her, but my customer really wanted this model for me to paint and I had sold my copies already so I went for it. Now looking back she (Jordana) gave me this email on the 4th of Jan when I asked to see a pic of the resin and references.

Hi Berit!

I don't have any pictures of him, but I can unbox him and snap a few
for you tomorrow. My camera is old, so usually my cell takes better
pictures than it, but I will try both and get you some pics. :)

I don't have too many references as I don't do too much selling (I'm a
black hole collector - one of my sales guys is Nocturno, direct from
Kitty for-ever ago! I guess she would be a reference. :)) I've also
purchased from Donna Chaney (AA's) and a medallion from Tom Bainbridge
quite some time ago. I recently dealt with Julie Charon
(chestnutappaloosa@*** (chestnutappaloosa@gmail.com) or she's JulesCharon on blab) about two
weeks ago, sold her a Mini Indy, and I sold Jenna Davis
(jennifer@jcryanebco*** (jennifer@jcryanebco.com)) a Haggis. That's pretty much everyone from
the sales I just started making. I have a few other people that I'm in
the midst of transactions with, if you'd like their names as well. :)

Thanks!
Jordana

I had read some of the blab writings on MMD, but lost interest when people got derailed from the original conversation so I didn't put it together that she was from the same town and her "references" were her alias'. I will be gathering info together soon in hopes of getting a criminal investigation started.
I had the same curiosity about the id she is using to open PO boxes and cashing usps money orders. It's possible she just steals ids or creates them.
I will be contacting an attorney in Brooklyn, NY. and I hope to get some more info there. Someone suggested on MHHR to contact the postal inspector. I will contact my post master and see what has to be done next. I will be offline, most likely, for a week so won't be able to do anything for that period.
I have put in an email to Elizabeth LaRose since she has put this into a concise summary and seems to have a clear picture of what is going on. I want to keep her informed as well.

A very dejected model horse collector~
Berit Andersen

As a side note. I do look for references and when I don't see them usually ask. The last 4-5 times I've asked about people I have not gotten no response. So it doesn't always work.

Intothesunstudio
03-08-2011, 09:58 AM
This whole situation is just insane. I just love how she uses her own fake past ids as references so that when the person asks for references they are actually writing to her and are not aware of it.

This woman has balls to continue to keep doing this. I'm honestly surprised legal action has not been started before this. With all of this information, this woman could certainly go down. For all the mail fraud, the fake names, possibly using other people's real names.

Just insane.

jasper978
03-08-2011, 01:30 PM
If anyone would like the envelope, or a copy of the MO she sent me with her and her 'mom's" names included, let me know. I can send copies or the original envelope.

Tin Pony Studio
03-08-2011, 04:16 PM
Yes, I would like this info. I'm trying to get everything together to get a case opened. (sorry don't know how to private email from here) deserteagle_1@msn.com
is mine.

Berit Andersen

RBrazil
03-08-2011, 07:58 PM
I would like a copy of the information also.

Thanks My email is rbrazil@gmail.com
Randi

bronzino
03-08-2011, 08:05 PM
I sent Berit her email - can't say enough good things about Berit - just had a very nice, 100% satisfactory transaction with her. I'm sorry to hear she got stung by this woman. Sorry for Randi too. :(

4ever_Unbridled
03-08-2011, 08:12 PM
I sent Berit her email - can't say enough good things about Berit - just had a very nice, 100% satisfactory transaction with her. I'm sorry to hear she got stung by this woman. Sorry for Randi too. :(

:yeahthat

I just had a smooth transaction with Berit as well (didn't know you were on Blab:hello-love my purple medallion). This makes me so mad and sad that this person is scamming so many people in the hobby:(.

Mary
03-08-2011, 09:07 PM
And just to mention ... several standard TTB restrictions are relaxed in this thread for this individual, including using words like 'scammer' and even 'confidence artist.' There is really no question and no benefit of the doubt to give. That is what she is.

The hobby has always looked up references by name ... it certainly never occurred to me before to do a search on prospective seller's location. But location is the key to this individual. Anyone who is changing names won't be identified with their past activity by a name search, so with luck a location search will help. I think that may need to be a new parameter in reporting - not giving actual addresses, but town/state/zip. Interestingly people who do this kind of thing sometimes don't hide their activity effectively, and can be found out.

I'm going to take the liberty of posting the location identifier to MHHR. Word needs to get out to more hobbyists.

And a fwiw ... there isn't room in this thread title for ALL the names ... :bigeyes

Intothesunstudio
03-08-2011, 09:57 PM
I think we need a sticky that the mods can update that lists all her names! I'm sorry to hear more people are being scammed by her.

jasper978
03-08-2011, 11:22 PM
Yes, I would like this info. I'm trying to get everything together to get a case opened. (sorry don't know how to private email from here) deserteagle_1@msn.com
is mine.

I will get the info scanned to my flash drive this week (printer in the house doesn't work currently, so I can't get it immediately, but will do so ASAP Berit and Randi.

And as everyone has said, Berit is great to work with, I purchased a chalky from her last summer and he was exactly as described, if not better.

Jackie Hasser

Berit Andersen

Horse Lady 6
03-09-2011, 12:56 AM
Wow. Over the course of my day, I have been reading this thread and I am absolutely shocked. I couldn't imagine something as big as this happening to the wonderful hobbyists I've encountered here. I very much agree that legal action should be taken, this is a serious matter that has gotten out of hand. I am also impressed with the detective work that has been done as well. Kudos to everyone that has helped put the pieces together.

I know that I am definitely going to double check and triple check my references from now on. Being in Canada it is even harder to keep track of everything and also being only sixteen may put up some red flags for other hobbyists as well, especially considering that I have just started becoming more active in the hobby and do not have any background transaction information on Blab, MHHR etc. so I very much hope that this whole ordeal has not turned hobbyists away from doing transactions with not just myself, but other younger hobbyists getting into the swing of things. Just my two cents, sorry about the slight derail.

Drakkarstudios
03-09-2011, 12:59 AM
I though about suggesting just making the title their last names if there get to be more aliases, but right now it seems imperitive to have the first names as well. Maybe run them together and just have no spaces in the thread title and just capitalize the first letters of each name. I dunno. Definitley maybe update the first post with the aliases and just keep adding would be helpful I think. Just a suggestion Liz and Mary.
I hate that there is a person running around doing this and the only red flag is the address which isn't even noticed until you've already agreed to price and everything else. I know I wouldn't want to deal with a red flag on MHHR if it's this person. Does she post on MHHR or anything, since we've hopefully gotten rid of her here. *knocks on wood*
We need a thread of all of the known people to not deal with maybe also a sticky or something in the Transaction forum with people not to deal with under any circumstances. Like the guy who tries to copy resins, all these aliases, the one or is it two kids who do the send me your horse and I'll send you mine. (I'm not using names since it hasn't happened to me, but to give an idea of what kind of people need to be on the list.)
Sorry this is kinda on topic, but also a little derailed since I'm proposing a new thread.

Stumbleine
03-09-2011, 02:59 AM
Guh. This whole thing is sickening. I'm sure no one is mulling over this but, I'm really sorry I defended MMD from the start, and I fell for Jules Charon as well. I just had friendly conversations with "both" of them, never put two and two together and never ... I don't know. I venomously defend my age as not something to judge me by but at this point I can't chalk it up to anything other than dumb young bad naive business.

Drakkarstudios
03-09-2011, 03:26 AM
Guh. This whole thing is sickening. I'm sure no one is mulling over this but, I'm really sorry I defended MMD from the start, and I fell for Jules Charon as well. I just had friendly conversations with "both" of them, never put two and two together and never ... I don't know. I venomously defend my age as not something to judge me by but at this point I can't chalk it up to anything other than dumb young bad naive business.

I didn't defend anyone, but I almost defended one of her aliases at one time. My transaction actually had a happy ending and I fell for her story. I also liked Jules, but now that I know what she/they are capable of I kinda feel lost in the hobby. Who do you really know? Who can you really trust. There are several people who I really like and feel like I trust. I would be entirely crushed if one of those people went awry. I hate that this has infiltrated my little hobby that has always been so trustworthy. I mean we are mostly women, sorry guys, but I feel kinda like a tightknit family and it bugs me to have that altered.
It does help to know that there are people like Liz and Mary to help and have our backs. I am really truly glad for them being in the hobby and I look up to them for going out of their way and standing up for everyone. They don't even really know most of us, yet are there for us.
Thanks guys!

lilfillie
03-09-2011, 10:56 AM
My worry is that she realizes that the hobby at large is on to her, and starts using a different address. Its been the address that has been her biggest giveaway, and if she alters that then its REALLY going to be tough to snuff her out. :(

RBrazil
03-09-2011, 10:56 AM
I just checked the emails I got from Jordana Michel and the first one that she used to post her original ad on HaynetExchange group. It came up as Jordanachicheldavis with the email of jordana@**.com

The second email she used to email me the name came up as Jordana Michel with the email of jordanamichel88@*****.com

When the money order was first sent back to me I just put the original envelope unopened into a new envelope and remailed it to her after double checking that the PO Box was 151 Levittown, NY which she confirmed that she had gotten the post office straightened out on.

I dont know if this will have any relevence or not but I thought it was interesting that the first email showed her name as Jordana Michel Davis but she had me make out the money order to Jordana Michel.

I am trying to get everything pertinent printed out and a criminal complaint form filled out and sent to the DA's office. I will also be filling out a case with the internet fraud claims at http://www.ic3.gov/complaint/default.aspx

And I will be filling out a claim for mail fraud with the post office at https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/forms/mailfraudcomplaint.aspx

Thanks to Diane for sending me those links (which she stated she used 3 times and all 3 times they worked for her) and Kristi for sending me the DA information and how to file.

Randi

RBrazil
03-09-2011, 10:59 AM
sorry typo in my previous post. Jordanachiheldavis should of read Jordanamicheldavis

Randi

HorseNut
03-09-2011, 12:22 PM
I though about suggesting just making the title their last names if there get to be more aliases, but right now it seems imperitive to have the first names as well. Maybe run them together and just have no spaces in the thread title and just capitalize the first letters of each name. I dunno. Definitley maybe update the first post with the aliases and just keep adding would be helpful I think. Just a suggestion Liz and Mary.

Just a thought: They could post another thread using the other aliases in the title and post a link to this thread in the body....then close/lock the second thread so that any reply would have to be made to this thread. That way anyone searching any of the names would be directed to this thread, which spells out the whole sordid story in detail.

Erin
03-09-2011, 12:24 PM
Just a thought: They could post another thread using the other aliases in the title and post a link to this thread in the body....then close/lock the thread so that any reply would have to be made to this thread. That way anyone searching any of the names would be directed to this thread.

I think a new sticky thread with the outline of the info, and a link pointing here is a great idea anyway, since as Berit mentioned, this one gets kind of big and difficult to wade through to find the information nuggets.

Adrien
03-09-2011, 01:24 PM
Hi, everybody. Some of you may know me from Regions 9 and 10 shows.

I just joined Blab for the first time to add my experience with Jenny Lee Guzzi (AKA Jenny Michaella Guzzi) regarding the Breyer Alpine that came out this winter. It was advertised on Haynet Exchange for just above cost (which, of course, is a great price but then some people get the horses and don't like them). So I replied and was told that it was available because an earlier purchaser backed out (this was only two hours after the posting). So I sent a money order to the Levittown address, got an email that it was received, and never heard anything again. Right after that the whole NYC area was crippled by snow (including me in New Jersey), so I made some allowances, but I never got the horse and never got any more responses to emails, including one for her husband. A reverse directory lookup show the land line was unlisted. A call to Breyer showed that they NEVER SHIPPED A HORSE TO THAT ADDRESS, so she didn't have the horse to sell in the first place (no wonder it was so cheap!)

A post to Haynet Exchange led me to a few other people who had problems with her, including one person who bought THE SAME HORSE AT THE SAME TIME FOR THE SAME PRICE. We are now pursuing legal channels and keeping in close contact.

Adrien Synnott
Horsehead Farms
Collecting Breyers since 1959 and really angry

jasper978
03-09-2011, 01:41 PM
I'm curious if anyone is close enough to Levittown, NY to just casually drop by and ask for a tour of her collection?

Drakkarstudios
03-09-2011, 01:47 PM
Okay, is Haynet doing anything about her? Does anyone know? I don't belong to Haynet or Fallen Leaves. I only belong to MHB and MHHR. I should belong to them I guess, but I barely have time to waste on this site. lmao So some of you guys are on those as well I know. Do they know of her on FallenLeaves and Haynet and are they doing anything?

Adrien
03-09-2011, 01:56 PM
I actually am, but dropping by could be contrued as a threat or trespassing and weaken the legal case. I would prefer to go through channels and show up accompanied by a cop....

I wouldn't be surprised to hear she was doing this with other types of collectibles--maybe Hummels, etc., who knows? The world of model horses is relatively small if one wants to make an illegal livng.

Adrien

Erin
03-09-2011, 02:05 PM
Yeah, I would NOT go to her house - this is all kinds of crazy, and that could be a very volatile situation.

Horse Lady 6
03-09-2011, 02:19 PM
I actually am, but dropping by could be contrued as a threat or trespassing and weaken the legal case. I would prefer to go through channels and show up accompanied by a cop....

I wouldn't be surprised to hear she was doing this with other types of collectibles--maybe Hummels, etc., who knows? The world of model horses is relatively small if one wants to make an illegal livng.

Adrien


Yeah, I would NOT go to her house - this is all kinds of crazy, and that could be a very volatile situation.


Wasn't it mentioned earlier in the thread that there is a firearm license that belongs to one of the alias' as well?

Drakkarstudios
03-09-2011, 02:22 PM
Wasn't it mentioned earlier in the thread that there is a firearm license that belongs to one of the alias' as well?

Yes it was and already advised not to go dropping by her house.

Mary
03-09-2011, 04:48 PM
You know, listing the names isn't the best defense. She just uses a new one. It's the town names - Levittown, Smithtown and Farmingdale. I think that as long as someone, somewhere continues falling into her trap, she'll keep using those addresses. From her pov, why not? Why change? From her pov, this is working as it is now with those addresses. Even with all the alerts going out, it ain't broke. Next name, next free $200 or however much, pick it up at the same place. Easy peasey. And of course those locations are more convenient to her than having to collect her money and models in some other area.

This is the flaw in the alerting of the hobby - the hobby is so used to referencing by name. They are having a hard time thinking like the scammer, a hard time getting that the key to avoiding this individual scammer is location. Everyone is asking for ever-longer lists of names - but that isn't going to save the next victim, because it won't be one of those names. Part of this individual scammer's success in defrauding people is that the hobby is a slow learner on this point, there is too much reliance on referencing only by the name.

Yes, it is tougher that one only finds out after the price is negotiated and you find out where to send the money or trade models. But nonetheless, better to stop the marriage just before walking up the aisle than regret it later. Or, just before the justice of the peace says ... well anyway. Bad analogy ... :lol

Mary
03-09-2011, 04:53 PM
Yes it was and already advised not to go dropping by her house.Absolutely right. That's why we pay taxes for police and other investigators.

No one should take this into their own hands - that is my very firm advice.

Those who were defrauded must be the ones to take action through official channels. Someone in that list needs to be able to organize everyone who is out money, get some lists of transactions, amounts and documentation (as Liz has already started for us with the first post.)

shastaharley
03-09-2011, 05:40 PM
Mary is right. Location would be an alert for this particular person, regardless of the name. Another thing I advise doing is check who the reference is coming from. We have seen over and over again this person use different names to give herself references. I've also seen this happen on ebay with new sellers so it isn't always a green light because of one or two references. If your considering spending a lot of money then take the time to research all avenues. Also, take the time to post about the model if it is rare to see if anyone already owns it or knows who it was originally sold to. In many cases with this person she has caught people by selling models she had previously posted about under another name. I know we all want to give the benefit of the doubt, especially when "life" circumstances are used as a reason, but quite honestly, regardless of the reason, if it makes you at all uncomfortable, file a claim before it's too late. You can always resend the money if the item shows up. Just my thoughts, for what they're worth.

NatalieK
03-09-2011, 05:45 PM
Except if you search MHHR by "Levittown" nothing comes up, even though Randi has posted this to the board. Bummer.

HorseNut
03-09-2011, 05:47 PM
You know, listing the names isn't the best defense. She just uses a new one. It's the town names - Levittown, Smithtown and Farmingdale. I think that as long as someone, somewhere continues falling into her trap, she'll keep using those addresses. From her pov, why not? Why change? From her pov, this is working as it is now with those addresses. Even with all the alerts going out, it ain't broke. Next name, next free $200 or however much, pick it up at the same place. Easy peasey. And of course those locations are more convenient to her than having to collect her money and models in some other area.

This is the flaw in the alerting of the hobby - the hobby is so used to referencing by name. They are having a hard time thinking like the scammer, a hard time getting that the key to avoiding this individual scammer is location. Everyone is asking for ever-longer lists of names - but that isn't going to save the next victim, because it won't be one of those names. Part of this individual scammer's success in defrauding people is that the hobby is a slow learner on this point, there is too much reliance on referencing only by the name.

Yes, it is tougher that one only finds out after the price is negotiated and you find out where to send the money or trade models. But nonetheless, better to stop the marriage just before walking up the aisle than regret it later. Or, just before the justice of the peace says ... well anyway. Bad analogy ... :lol

You make a very good point.

Here's another point. I know it's hard, I know it's time consuming and I know it's a major pain in the posterior, but if those that were defrauded by this person will find a way to band together and be keep after the police to file charges against her, then MAYBE she will be punished. Remember, the squeaky wheel gets the oil.

That is probably the only way to get her to stop. So far, it's been pretty easy money and she really hasn't had much incentive to quit. Maybe a nice jail sentence and/or large fine, coupled with a police record would help her to finally see the error of her ways.

Y'know....if people like her would put as much imagination and effort into something not illegal, they would probably make a nice living. It's got to be a LOT of work to keep up all these personas!