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View Full Version : Price vs Paypal Fees - a general discussion



RobinHoodFan
09-15-2015, 09:18 AM
fyi - a benign & happy mod note -
This excellent discussion of Paypal fees and model price grew out of a reference check thread. Blab normally does not moderate thread drift, or split threads. But this discussion is a great one to preserve where it can be easily found later by anyone who is looking, based on the thread title. Early posts originated in the other thread.
:rays

==========================



I can't help on the reference front as I've never heard/dealt with her before but just a tidbit of advice. NEVER do personal payment if it's someone you don't know. You'll have NO protection whatsoever.

3barrelsup
09-15-2015, 09:36 AM
I would pay the paypal fees in addition to the cost of the model if it was a deal breaker. But never pay thru friends and family. No protection for yourself.....

Brenda
09-15-2015, 10:49 AM
I can't help on the reference front as I've never heard/dealt with her before but just a tidbit of advice. NEVER do personal payment if it's someone you don't know. You'll have NO protection whatsoever.


I would pay the paypal fees in addition to the cost of the model if it was a deal breaker. But never pay thru friends and family. No protection for yourself.....

I agree with both of them. I'd be willing to pay the PayPal fees if that was the only way to get the model, but no way would I pay through Friends & Family, especially on an expensive model. I'd be weary of even someone asking me to use F&F on a high end model.

LadyPhaseCrazy
09-15-2015, 02:47 PM
:yeahthat

Mary
09-15-2015, 06:42 PM
Does she say why she wants you to pay through the personal channel? Is it just to avoid the fees?

The thing is, without fee revenue, there is no Paypal. There are other ways to pay if someone doesn't want to pay fees to Paypal or other fee-based payment system.

Another way to look at it is that the fee is the price of protection, whoever pays it, so that's something to keep in mind. If someone pays by check there are no fees (other than whatever is paid to the bank anyway), but there is no protection, either ... as is true of the Paypal personal channel, of course.

Just things to consider when a request like that comes up. :)

Ponygirl
09-16-2015, 01:41 PM
Whenever this comes up I always like to remind people that sites like http://www.rememberingrolbe.com/paypal.htm allow you to reverse-calculate the fees on payments, as well as see in advance how much the Paypal fees will be if you ask for a certain price.

If you're buying an item and want to pay the fees so you can still have the Paypal Buyer Protection, here's how NOT to send more than you should have to. If you're selling, here's how to see how much you will actually get to pocket once Paypal takes their cut, so you can avoid asking people to pay for fees in the first place. Technically, asking folks to pay the fees is against Paypal's TOS IIRC, so it's better to charge enough to cover if that's what you want.

Brenda
09-16-2015, 02:43 PM
Whenever this comes up I always like to remind people that sites like http://www.rememberingrolbe.com/paypal.htm allow you to reverse-calculate the fees on payments, as well as see in advance how much the Paypal fees will be if you ask for a certain price.

If you're buying an item and want to pay the fees so you can still have the Paypal Buyer Protection, here's how NOT to send more than you should have to. If you're selling, here's how to see how much you will actually get to pocket once Paypal takes their cut, so you can avoid asking people to pay for fees in the first place. Technically, asking folks to pay the fees is against Paypal's TOS IIRC, so it's better to charge enough to cover if that's what you want.

I keep hearing that it's against their TOS, but you see people all the time saying they want you to pay the fees. I think people should just add it into the amount they're asking.

Ponygirl
09-17-2015, 11:54 AM
Yeah, exactly. Nothing like that little sour taste in my mouth when I think I'm going to buy a thing for $X and then find out the seller really wants $X+fewdollars. So if I'm going to sell a horse and I actually want to end up with $175, I plug it into the above-linked website and it says to have the buyer send me $180.54. Not too hard to post my asking price as $180 and eat a few cents. Then nobody has to feel weird about this whole paying fees nonsense, and I don't have to wonder if I'm breaking Paypal's TOS and risking my entire account in the process.

Mary
09-17-2015, 05:26 PM
I can see a seller looking on their price as the This Is What I Want In My Account Price. If a seller paid without fees, for instance by check, that's the price. But if the seller asks to pay through Paypal or a means that will incur fees to the seller, the seller want them to add the fees.

I get that. What's confusing is that prices are not distinguished this way in sales ads/postings. So the buyer only finds out when they inquire.

Mary
09-17-2015, 05:33 PM
There's another consideration that I wonder if sellers consider - or even know. As a seller I may be thinking that I'm protected on a payment by check because I will wait until "the check clears" to send the model. Once the funds show up in my account, I'll ship.

But I don't know if many people realize that having a bank credit funds to the account does NOT mean the check "cleared". The check can still bounce and the funds be taken out of the account, days after funds were credited by the bank.

Banks credit funds based on certain criteria, not on whether the check clears. I know that sounds idiotic but it's the way they have always done it since electronic banking, maybe before. The actual check processing is completely separate from the accounting for the customer accounts. Customer-facing retail banks and their employees have no visibility into the actual status of a deposited check. I know that sounds counter-intuitive and crazy, but it is true. A knowledgeable bank official will confirm it (many of the less knowledgeable employees don't know the process).

It can be many days after a check is credited to an account that the info gets back that the check isn't good. That is why I think the opportunity to have Paypal protection is wonderful and I am happy to pay for it. :)

RobinHoodFan
09-17-2015, 05:46 PM
Yeah, exactly. Nothing like that little sour taste in my mouth when I think I'm going to buy a thing for $X and then find out the seller really wants $X+fewdollars. So if I'm going to sell a horse and I actually want to end up with $175, I plug it into the above-linked website and it says to have the buyer send me $180.54. Not too hard to post my asking price as $180 and eat a few cents. Then nobody has to feel weird about this whole paying fees nonsense, and I don't have to wonder if I'm breaking Paypal's TOS and risking my entire account in the process.

Online calculators are great but in all reality, all you need is a regular ol' calculator provided you (general "you") actually READ the terms you agree to when signing up! Or just go reference the fees on Paypal website when calculating your price. It's all right there in black and white. Although the online calculators are a really quick option, I'll give them that.

However, That fee calculator isn't correct...I JUST received a $100 payment for something and they took out 3.20 (2.9% + .30) ....not sure where that calculator is getting $3.30 even though it shows the correct fee amount they take......even a different calculator I checked out shows $3.30 on $100 so :dunno

Basically what I'm trying to say is that there is really no excuse for not calculating fees into a price (it's part of your overhead and expense on that item so it should be factored in...period).

UNLESS you are charging more for a time payment service. That I can see because time pays can be quite inconvenient and it does add up more fees on top of what was originally planned ...especially if the time pays were requested by the buyer and not advertised or in the seller terms.

Auctions and offers have a starting offer so as long as you calculate that in the price you are willing to let it go for, any extra money is bonus and so what if you eat some fees in the process?--it was more than you were originally letting it go for anyway! The fees are just so small from paypal that IMHO asking buyers to pay seller fees comes off as downright greedy. You're losing what, $3.20 on a $100 order to pay for fast, easy service to get money instantly available to you without even lifting a finger? Comeon... 9x out of 10 I will no do business with someone I don't know well who asks me to pay their fees or send personal, I don't care how badly I want the item.

Sorry, but this subject always rubs me the wrong way! I pay MY fees so why should I have to pay yours?!

VWK'sanEasyGoer
09-17-2015, 05:49 PM
Love Paypal and every time I have to call them about something they always say "Hello Mrs Krentz. We'd like to thank you for being one of our best customers". But I always use it! You're payments are protected by and extra level rather than popping your CC number onto the Internet. I believe in having fees as you're using their service and the fees go towards the serviced you're using.

I personally prefer if sellers take fees into account when listing or at least mention something about it. I very rarely use friends and family except with a few select persons who I already have a relationship established with. Almost always otherwise it's goods sold. That protection is great piece of mind. If someone has an issue with fees then we can work something out in the final cost rather than send payments in an unprotected manner.

Lora
09-18-2015, 04:03 AM
As a seller my preferred method of payment is "direct bank transfer"
- if the buyer has a bank account at the same bank as I have in Germany (and i believe if someone sends from UK bank account to my UK bank account) the money is in my bank account immediately (and that is where I need t, Pay Pal takes a few days to get it to my bank account)
- I don't have to pay any fees for this transaction
- money can't be reversed , no risk of "check bouncing" etc. or buyers getting money and model by claiming they never received it or similar (but that means less protection for buyers)
- the money is where I need it and I don't have to get it from Pay Pal account to bank account, or even worse from one Pay Pal to another and than on my bank account because Pay Pal can't change the country on my return address
Unfortunately it is against the rules of Pay Pal to offer discounts for using direct bank transfer (and there are hobbiests who have nothing better to do than report people for breaking rules of Pay Pal). but I don't know I can legally offer "Skonto" I believe and I would thing that Skonto does not apply to Pay Pal payments ?
And it is also against the rules to ask the buyer to pay the fees or use the pay family and friends option
So the only thing you can do is add the fees to the cost of the model horse but than it's even more difficult to sell a model horse :(
Checks are alien to me and I try to avoid them.
The advantage of Pay Pal is that I can sell models outside of UK or Germany as a seller and some buyers may prefer to pay with Pay Pal because of the protection
As a buyer I like Pay Pal of course because of the protection it offers to me as a buyer , so I would not mind that much to pay a few $$ more. and i won't use the family and friends option on goods unless I know the person really well.

Ulla Harneit

Mary
09-18-2015, 09:31 AM
...
Auctions and offers have a starting offer so as long as you calculate that in the price you are willing to let it go for, any extra money is bonus and so what if you eat some fees in the process?--it was more than you were originally letting it go for anyway! The fees are just so small from paypal that IMHO asking buyers to pay seller fees comes off as downright greedy. You're losing what, $3.20 on a $100 order to pay for fast, easy service to get money instantly available to you without even lifting a finger? ...

I completely agree with this. If a seller or buyer is coming unglued about a few dollars, it doesn't seem to be a worthwhile transaction, for a number of reasons.

Heck, I've paid more in shipping and fees than for an actual model, one that wasn't valuable but I wanted it for some reason.



I can see a seller looking on their price as the This Is What I Want In My Account Price. If a seller paid without fees, for instance by check, that's the price. But if the seller asks to pay through Paypal or a means that will incur fees to the seller, the seller want them to add the fees.

I get that. What's confusing is that prices are not distinguished this way in sales ads/postings. So the buyer only finds out when they inquire.

Oops ... I worded the first para all wrong !!! :dohdoh

What I meant to say:
"I can see a seller looking on their price as the "This Is What I Want In My Account Price". If a buyer paid without fees, for instance by check, that's the price they would pay. But if the buyer asks to pay through Paypal or a means that will incur fees that are automatically charged to the seller, the seller wants them to add the fees. I get that."

The other side of this is the way buyers perceives prices, assuming transactions will be using Paypal. Buyers assumed prices include those fees, because that's what most sellers are doing.

If sellers want to use the internet to sell, it's best to assume there will be fees and just build that in, rather than risk alienating a prospective buyer by adding the fees to the price AFTER they inquire.

BuckR.
09-18-2015, 06:59 PM
Exactly! I am both a seller and a buyer, so I see this all the time on both ends. I eat the fees. They are minimal. Besides, I would rather have a buyer pay with Paypal, and I pay the fees, that to have to wait a loooonnnnggg time for a money order or check to come in. Also, since the money is in my PP account, I can spend it right away on another horse.
However, I try to steer clear of eBay. Added all up, I am paying close to $20% in fees. But I do get more sales. So in reality, if you want to sell more, for more $, and faster, than use Paypal. And sellers, don't bite the hand that feeds you by complaining about the 8% fees! Sheesh.

RobinHoodFan
09-18-2015, 07:20 PM
Exactly! I am both a seller and a buyer, so I see this all the time on both ends. I eat the fees. They are minimal. Besides, I would rather have a buyer pay with Paypal, and I pay the fees, that to have to wait a loooonnnnggg time for a money order or check to come in. Also, since the money is in my PP account, I can spend it right away on another horse.
However, I try to steer clear of eBay. Added all up, I am paying close to $20% in fees. But I do get more sales. So in reality, if you want to sell more, for more $, and faster, than use Paypal. And sellers, don't bite the hand that feeds you by complaining about the 8% fees! Sheesh.

8%? Paypal only charges 2.9%! Yea I agree with you about ebay..trying to move away from that but it is the best place for traffic. They take about 10% I blieve plus you have paypal's 2.9 on top of that..so you're losing about 13% when all is said and done..HOWEVER, regardless...if you calculate it into your pricing then you're not losing anything!

Eviejean
09-18-2015, 07:23 PM
Basically what I'm trying to say is that there is really no excuse for not calculating fees into a price (it's part of your overhead and expense on that item so it should be factored in...period).

The fees are just so small from paypal that IMHO asking buyers to pay seller fees comes off as downright greedy. You're losing what, $3.20 on a $100 order to pay for fast, easy service to get money instantly available to you without even lifting a finger? Comeon... 9x out of 10 I will no do business with someone I don't know well who asks me to pay their fees or send personal, I don't care how badly I want the item.

Sorry, but this subject always rubs me the wrong way! I pay MY fees so why should I have to pay yours?!

(snip & bolded by me)
ABSOLUTELY & TOTALLY AGREE!!

If I see a seller asking ME to pay the PAYPAL fees I just keep on looking for a different seller!!!
PLUS it's against PayPal's rules.
I "play by the rules", why do you think YOU (general you) don't have to??? :dunno

BuckR.
09-18-2015, 07:27 PM
8%? Paypal only charges 2.9%! Yea I agree with you about ebay..trying to move away from that but it is the best place for traffic. They take about 10% I blieve plus you have paypal's 2.9 on top of that..so you're losing about 13% when all is said and done..HOWEVER, regardless...if you calculate it into your pricing then you're not losing anything!

Sheesh, I thought it was 8%. Thank-you!

But EXACTLY! If I am selling someone a $200 horse, what's 2.9%?? Paypal is safe, and secure, and they are simple and easy to use. I can draw up invoices for the horses I sell, and it is a clear, clean cut, no ends left untied transaction. As a seller and a buyer, I can't afford NOT to use them! Besides, I really think people get offended (Like I would) to have to pay more for fees. Is it worth offending someone or having a sale fall through for just 2.9%?

BuckR.
09-18-2015, 07:30 PM
I have had people who want me to pay fees, and I will, if I want the horse badly enough. But I will have sellers (seriously!) who won't use Paypal because Paypal reports their income to the IRS. I may pay your fees, but I WON'T not use Paypal so you can CHEAT on your taxes! :somad

horsefreak
09-18-2015, 07:54 PM
Yep about 13%...I’m a full-time evilBay seller. If I want to make a certain amount, I adjust the price. For instance, on a recent auction I made the starting bid $49.99, after the fees are taken out I’d make about $43.50. The item cost me $43.19, so if it only got only 1 bid at least I get back about what I paid for it.

Sandy A.
09-18-2015, 08:59 PM
I don't buy from sellers who ask for fees to be added on to the price, but will look elsewhere for the item. However, I often calculate the fees and add them to the money I send when I purchase from a private seller. (I did have one seller return that money to me.)

I have asked for fees to be added on a couple of times when I have won a CC model, and am purchasing it for someone else and mailing directly to them. If the money is sent to me thru goods & services, fees are taken out, so I would have to make up the difference to pay Breyer. I know it's not a large amount, but I don't think I should be out of pocket even a few dollars for helping someone get a desired limited run model at near issue price.

When selling, I only ask for payment thru friends/family at BF. When the buyer has the model in hand, there is no need for buyer protection -- it won't be damaged or lost in the mail, and they have had the chance to inspect it. I will also pay this way if I have the model in hand.

The only other time I use friends/family is when paying live show fees. I like using paypal as it is easier for me to send payment that way and email the entry form at the same time. The show fees are non-refundable anyway, so it doesn't matter to me how it is sent.

Mary
09-18-2015, 09:33 PM
This is the only thing I'll remark about the non-fee family & friends ... that convenience is not intended for regular and ordinary transactions, but for special personal situations.

Paypal is a business; they provide a valuable service. In fact, an invaluable service. They maintain enormous, complex infrastructure. They hire many people. I can only imagine how many employees and how much training it takes to give a fair amount of personal service to each complaint/dispute. And the amount of people's money Paypal processes accurately and safely on a daily basis is staggering. I hear few, if any, complaints about Paypal transaction errors.

Why should Paypal not be compensated for the good job they do? Why do people expect a smooth, convenient, online transaction to be provided to them for free? at someone else's expense?

Especially when the fees are so nominal. The total fee amount means very little to us. But the volume of those fees constitutes a large sum to Paypal that keeps them in business.

Businesses that are not profitable don't last. Paying the fee is NOT a bad thing, it's a good and responsible thing. It would be great to find out that people stepped up and paid the fees not because of the legalities, but because they appreciate Paypal's role in providing them a good service.
:rays

BuckR.
09-18-2015, 09:51 PM
This is the only thing I'll remark about the non-fee family & friends ... that convenience is not intended for regular and ordinary transactions, but for special personal situations.

Paypal is a business; they provide a valuable service. In fact, an invaluable service. They maintain enormous, complex infrastructure. They hire many people. I can only imagine how many employees and how much training it takes to give a fair amount of personal service to each complaint/dispute. And the amount of people's money Paypal processes accurately and safely on a daily basis is staggering. I hear few, if any, complaints about Paypal transaction errors.

Why should Paypal not be compensated for the good job they do? Why do people expect a smooth, convenient, online transaction to be provided to them for free? at someone else's expense?

Especially when the fees are so nominal. The total fee amount means very little to us. But the volume of those fees constitutes a large sum to Paypal that keeps them in business.

Businesses that are not profitable don't last. Paying the fee is NOT a bad thing, it's a good and responsible thing. It would be great to find out that people stepped up and paid the fees not because of the legalities, but because they appreciate Paypal's role in providing them a good service.
:rays

Yes! Not only is using the Friends and Family for a business transaction unsafe, it is against Paypal's policy. I would personally never ask a buyer to do that. It is just wrong. Instead, I draw up an invoice, have them pay that, and I ask the same when I buy. I wouldn't want Paypal to lose money because I used their invaluable service, but I was too cheap to pay their small fee! How is that right?

VAFLindsay
09-19-2015, 06:45 AM
Just kind of glanced through some of the thoughts on here, but often if I'm buying from someone I know (and like), I'll throw in a couple of extra bucks to help cover their fees. They don't ask, I just do it, because I understand that frustration, and hey, I like them. Doesn't kill my budget to help them out. I never use the personal, unless I REALLY know the person and I trust them completely, or it was for something like a group PIF, where I'm collecting the money. When I pay for the item, then it goes via the usual route. But I NEVER ask a buyer to throw in extra for my fees.

But the number of people I see complaining on FB about the paypal fees and the repeated posts about how they had a transaction go bad because they paid through family and friends and then got ripped off.....well.....go read those TOS. And do your research on the seller BEFORE buying. Before even CONTACTING the seller. Could save a lot of heartache and frustration.

As far as shows go, like Sandy mentioned, I usually am lucky enough to just pay my entry fee at the door. :D They know I'm good for it, lol!

Sweet Defense
09-20-2015, 02:20 PM
On bank transfers - from Europe to the US they are not free and they are not instant. Took me about 10 days to get the money when I transferred from my account in Sweden to my account in the US. PayPal all the way.

RobinHoodFan
09-20-2015, 06:45 PM
On bank transfers - from Europe to the US they are not free and they are not instant. Took me about 10 days to get the money when I transferred from my account in Sweden to my account in the US. PayPal all the way.

The other way around has massive fees too. I once bid on a small robin hood pencil topper that I won for $3.99 but didn't realize they didn't take paypal (this was back when you had that option as a seller on eBay) and it was bank transfer only. So since it was my fault, I sucked it up and went to the bank to do the transfer I figured there'd be a fee but it was my fault and figured I'd pay a little extra...but they wanted a $50 fee on top of the amount the transfer was for!!!! There was no way I could afford that at the time and no way I was paying that for a $4 pencil topper! I felt so terrible about it but thankfully the seller was very understanding and we mutually canceled the sale. So yea, won't be doing any bank transfers either :lol

Sandy A.
09-20-2015, 07:04 PM
I have taken payment by friends/family twice for in person sales, about 2 years apart, as a courtesy to the buyers who did not have the cash. It will no longer be an option for buyers in my room at BF. I would rather have cash anyway, as I can't use paypal at the Breyer store.

Robin
09-20-2015, 11:49 PM
I have taken payment by friends/family twice for in person sales, about 2 years apart, as a courtesy to the buyers who did not have the cash. It will no longer be an option for buyers in my room at BF. I would rather have cash anyway, as I can't use paypal at the Breyer store.

I have to admit that I vastly prefer receiving Friends/Family Paypal during Room Sales at Breyerfest. This isn't because I want to cheat Paypal out of fees - because I am adamantly against doing it when selling models online - but because I am very afraid of chargebacks. As a seller, I have no recourse whatsoever if the buyer does a chargeback once they have the model in hard. I have no shipping receipts and no tracking numbers; it's all their word against mine.

If a buyer is uncomfortable paying me that way, it's fine; I'll take regular Paypal, too. But I wish there was some protection for items paid for in person with regular Paypal to keep people from doing chargebacks and winning the dispute. I'm unhappy with my current policies because I vastly prefer to take payments in accordance with Paypal's TOS, and I agree that Paypal deserves their cut, as they are a business providing a service. But I really don't want to have to deal with an unscrupulous buyer doing a chargeback for a model that they walked out of my room with, either.

Eviejean
09-22-2015, 08:44 AM
Just kind of glanced through some of the thoughts on here, but often if I'm buying from someone I know (and like), I'll throw in a couple of extra bucks to help cover their fees. They don't ask, I just do it, because I understand that frustration, and hey, I like them. Doesn't kill my budget to help them out. I never use the personal, unless I REALLY know the person and I trust them completely, or it was for something like a group PIF, where I'm collecting the money. When I pay for the item, then it goes via the usual route. But I NEVER ask a buyer to throw in extra for my fees.

But the number of people I see complaining on FB about the paypal fees and the repeated posts about how they had a transaction go bad because they paid through family and friends and then got ripped off.....well.....go read those TOS. And do your research on the seller BEFORE buying. Before even CONTACTING the seller. Could save a lot of heartache and frustration.

As far as shows go, like Sandy mentioned, I usually am lucky enough to just pay my entry fee at the door. :D They know I'm good for it, lol!
(bolded by me)
I don't do it all the time but I've done that in the past, too.
BUT absolutely NOT because I've been asked to pay the PayPal fees! (nope, just won't do it!)

Altairshelties
09-22-2015, 11:31 AM
I always figure the fees into the cost of what I am selling. I also figure it in to time payments I just figure its the cost of selling and still far cheaper then selling on ebay. A business like paypal needs to make money or what is the point. As a buyer I will not do personal just as I will not put gift on customs forms unless it really is.