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View Full Version : Is it okay to include unsolicited 'extras' in a box shipped to a buyer?



allykatd
11-06-2016, 03:53 PM
This can be a controversial topic, but I'd really like to discuss it in a sane way because I want to understand both sides of the issues.

Some of you on Facebook probably saw the post in the Model Horse Transaction Board where someone bought a model that was sent to her with religious fliers included.

She was not happy about this. She felt it was inappropriate. Some people said it's their duty as Christians to spread the word. Some said what's the big deal. Some said they'd just toss it and forget about it. Some said they'd think about not doing business with that person. I didn't read all of the responses because it appropriately was removed. (I agree it did not belong on Model Horse Transactions fB page). Still it was interesting although some people were getting mad. Although I don't see any reason to get angry about it.

My take on it is this:

If I'm paying the postage, including a nice thank you note or invoice is expected. I think anything else is inappropriate such as religious, political or any other fliers or pamphlets unless it pertains to the business. Example, I get a box from Dick Blick Art and they include a catalog. I recently received an invoice that had religious quotes on it. I just shrugged it off but having worked in business as many people here have, it was unprofessional and had me going :uh:huh. I think it would be totally weird of me to put fliers on my religious --or political-- views into a box of stuff someone purchased from me.

Now oddly, I feel if the seller is paying the postage, they can send me all the stuff they want, it's on their nickle not mine. :dunno I may change my mind on this, but they're paying for it... again though... even if they are paying for it, should it still be inappropriate?

pzp
11-06-2016, 04:17 PM
I used to have a regular customer who always sent me religious tracts with her checks. (Yeah, this was before Paypal.) I just threw them out.
Years ago, when I was doing a lot of shipping, Iʻd throw in a few wrapped hard candies with each order.

Drenarrow
11-06-2016, 04:21 PM
I wouldn't be mad if I got a flyer in with my horse (as long as it was light enough to not increase the shipping cost), but I can't say I'd encourage it.
However, I think it's a bit extreme to refuse to buy from the person again (or discourage others from doing so) if they are otherwise pleasant to deal with.

(Also extra stuff can be awesome, like the Pop Rocks TMMH sends! :party)

curlinfan
11-06-2016, 04:22 PM
I wouldn't like it but I wouldn't get on a public forum to complain about it either. Depending on what it was I might contact seller and let them know I didn't appreciate it. For example if the material was generic religious pamphlet saying "Christ died for your sins so accept Him as your Savior" I'd just toss it & move on. If it was more extreme and said something like "If you don't accept Jesus as your Savior you'll burn in Hell with the Jews, Muslims and Communists. Repent and be saved!" then I would contact them privately and let them know it's not appropriate.

Nichelle
11-06-2016, 04:24 PM
Inappropriate or not, I think it takes way more energy to make a fuss over it than it does to just throw it away and be done with it. :dunno

Drenarrow
11-06-2016, 04:24 PM
Inappropriate or not, I think it takes way more energy to make a fuss over it than it does to just throw it away and be done with it. :dunno
:yeahthat

isalrae
11-06-2016, 04:28 PM
I was curious about people's thoughts on this, as well.

In my opinion, there really is no place for it in this case. I wouldn't be offended but I probably wouldn't deal with that seller again if I knew they were going to solicit me to their views. It could have been something I totally agreed with and I still would have been like "really?" I made a deal with them to buy a model and that's that. I've had somewhat similar but still different cases where I negotiated a transaction with someone and then suddenly they are telling me their very personal life story with details that I really did not need to know that made me feel uncomfortable (like details that most people wouldn't openly share with someone they are close to, let alone someone they had been talking to for less than an hour about a model horse sale). I feel this is kind of a similar case. It's unnecessary and puts the person on the receiving end in an awkward position.

Of course it really is harmless, as many said on that post, just toss it and move on. But it's still unnecessary and borderline inappropriate IMO. It could have been about anything, like joining a notoriously violent cult or something. Is it okay then? It could have been something that the person on the receiving end feels VERY strongly against and could have caused unnecessary issues. I will never include completely unrelated things in with the things I sell. The buyer wants what they paid for... and that's about it.

Some people on that post said it was like someone saying "Happy [insert religious holiday here]" to someone without knowing if they celebrate that holiday or not. Just a nice gesture. But in this case I don't think it was like that... there's saying something nice, and then there's subjecting someone to their views and potentially telling that someone that their own views are wrong.

But that's just my thoughts on it. I probably wouldn't get up in arms about it but it would still be kind of a "well... okay then" moment for me.

emt8134
11-06-2016, 05:07 PM
I buy a lot of horses off eBay. I really am thrilled when someone thoughtfully encloses a little note card (especially if it has horses on it) saying "thanks for your purchase". I'm certainly inclined to check their other listings.
I think it's a lovely thing to do. Religious fliers? Mmmm..not so much. One of the reasons I can't fully 100% commit to a religious faction. I'm not here to push my beliefs on you. Just like I had to discover the message and take away what I will, so does each of us. Or not. That's why God blessed us with a brain to choose...
Candy is another touchy one. I'm not diabetic or on a diet (though I need to be!) but I know I'd feel awful if I mistakenly sent it to someone who was..

Eviejean
11-06-2016, 05:13 PM
I was curious about people's thoughts on this, as well.

In my opinion, there really is no place for it in this case. I wouldn't be offended but I probably wouldn't deal with that seller again if I knew they were going to solicit me to their views. It could have been something I totally agreed with and I still would have been like "really?" I made a deal with them to buy a model and that's that. I've had somewhat similar but still different cases where I negotiated a transaction with someone and then suddenly they are telling me their very personal life story with details that I really did not need to know that made me feel uncomfortable (like details that most people wouldn't openly share with someone they are close to, let alone someone they had been talking to for less than an hour about a model horse sale). I feel this is kind of a similar case. It's unnecessary and puts the person on the receiving end in an awkward position.

Of course it really is harmless, as many said on that post, just toss it and move on. But it's still unnecessary and borderline inappropriate IMO. It could have been about anything, like joining a notoriously violent cult or something. Is it okay then? It could have been something that the person on the receiving end feels VERY strongly against and could have caused unnecessary issues. I will never include completely unrelated things in with the things I sell. The buyer wants what they paid for... and that's about it.

Some people on that post said it was like someone saying "Happy [insert religious holiday here]" to someone without knowing if they celebrate that holiday or not. Just a nice gesture. But in this case I don't think it was like that... there's saying something nice, and then there's subjecting someone to their views and potentially telling that someone that their own views are wrong.

But that's just my thoughts on it. I probably wouldn't get up in arms about it but it would still be kind of a "well... okay then" moment for me.
:yeahthat

I'm not on Facebook or the Model Horse Transaction board so I know nothing about what the OP is referencing.

But having said that, IMHO I don't believe a seller should insert their religious or political beliefs (both hot-button issues) into a package they send to a complete stranger. Or even someone they may think they know. I'm not a particularly religious person and I don't like anyone trying to force their religious beliefs (or political beliefs for that matter) on me whether it's a flyer in something I've ordered, someone coming unsolicited to preach at my front door or a political phone call.

I wouldn't go off the deep end as it sounds like the person did but I DO find it inappropriate.

Landshark
11-06-2016, 05:23 PM
This is interesting! When I was searching for another sheltie, I was recommended to a breeder in WA State. I went to her web site, and on every page, she had some notation from the Bible on the web site! Yes, on the sheltie web site! I was a bit taken aback! What did the Bible have to do with shelties? She was excited to have me looking over her kennel. But i just could not get the thought of the Bible citations out of my head... I wasn't sure what it meant... it had to mean something for her to take the time to add them... I asked a couple of people and they really were not sure, except that she was religious. Religious is fine, but to go so far as to cite the Bible on a dog web site? And then not make mention of her religious views in her about page.... I just had to move on to another breeder... I guess I needed full disclosure...

So I am not so sure I would be buying from someone again who included religious materials in w models.... I don't feel the two mesh, and there is a time and a place for such things, I guess. That's just me tho... Again, unless there was full disclosure. If I knew the person was religious, then it would be okay, I guess.. Does this make sense.. ? I am thinking as I write....

AMG
11-06-2016, 05:25 PM
Depends on the nature of the freebie.

If it's a little promo thingie like a keychain, pen or magnet, or a small treat like a piece of chocolate or a little sample box of tea, I have no problem with that. The promo things are a part of business, and the treats are part of being courteous.

I am not keen on being given religious or political tracts. What I would do, though, would depend on the situation. For instance, there was a dealer years ago that started sending out some really weird political tracts, and I told them to stop it. It was borderline crazy/scary - how to evade taxes, sovereign citizen militia stuff. They responded by doubling down on sending them to me, and that's when I took the file of letters I had been sent to the post office and let the Postal Police take care of the problem.

(And they did. Yay Post Office!)

The religious stuff I usually just ignore and chuck in the trash. If it's especially bad "Repent or Be Damned!" kind of literature, I just make a mental note to not do business with them unless I have to. I don't take to kindly to being preached at.

skippyfan
11-06-2016, 05:26 PM
While I wouldn't outright refuse to buy from a person that packaged religious propaganda with a horse I purchased, I would probably think twice about buying from them again. If two people had the model I wanted to buy, I would likely contact for the person that HADN'T sent me religious propaganda first. I just don't like being preached at by others; religion is a very personal thing, and I've already made up my mind on it. Receiving fliers in a package with a model horse is going to do nothing but annoy me. Now, if I newspaper is used as additional packing material, I wouldn't get offended if the opinion or a religious section was used. :lol

Miss Susan
11-06-2016, 06:01 PM
I was curious about people's thoughts on this, as well.

In my opinion, there really is no place for it in this case. I wouldn't be offended but I probably wouldn't deal with that seller again if I knew they were going to solicit me to their views. It could have been something I totally agreed with and I still would have been like "really?" I made a deal with them to buy a model and that's that. I've had somewhat similar but still different cases where I negotiated a transaction with someone and then suddenly they are telling me their very personal life story with details that I really did not need to know that made me feel uncomfortable (like details that most people wouldn't openly share with someone they are close to, let alone someone they had been talking to for less than an hour about a model horse sale). I feel this is kind of a similar case. It's unnecessary and puts the person on the receiving end in an awkward position.

Of course it really is harmless, as many said on that post, just toss it and move on. But it's still unnecessary and borderline inappropriate IMO. It could have been about anything, like joining a notoriously violent cult or something. Is it okay then? It could have been something that the person on the receiving end feels VERY strongly against and could have caused unnecessary issues. I will never include completely unrelated things in with the things I sell. The buyer wants what they paid for... and that's about it.

Some people on that post said it was like someone saying "Happy [insert religious holiday here]" to someone without knowing if they celebrate that holiday or not. Just a nice gesture. But in this case I don't think it was like that... there's saying something nice, and then there's subjecting someone to their views and potentially telling that someone that their own views are wrong.

But that's just my thoughts on it. I probably wouldn't get up in arms about it but it would still be kind of a "well... okay then" moment for me.

Interesting topic.

You pretty much expressed how I feel. I wouldn't be all up in arms, but it would annoy me. I don't mind little extras like candy or pens (heck I love pens), but religious or political stuff, no. :thumbsdown Would it affect whether I bought something from them in the future? It just might. As for tossing it out, yes it is easy to do, but what a waste of trees etc.

ETA: as a note to sellers: why risk losing a future costumer?

Whysome
11-06-2016, 06:53 PM
I can see being annoyed and I can also see not doing business with someone cause of something like that. I don't mind little cards thanking me for purchasing; those are pretty non offensive. I would draw the line at whether or not the "extras" relate to the purchase. If you're buying a Bible, a religious tract would be appropriate. If it's art supplies, a catalog fits in the same way. I've had a seller send a Breyer catalog along with the horse. I'm one of those strange people who love looking at catalogs so I loved that and I've bought from that seller again. But I wouldn't send the Breyer catalog along with a Bible, and vice versa.

Yes, you can just toss the stuff, but I can understand being annoyed with it, especially since it's now something you, the buyer, have to deal with.

Lupineleigh
11-06-2016, 07:57 PM
Hm... You've all go my thinking cap on. I can understand all of the perspectives voiced here. If I recieved a tract on something I am polictically or religously against, I would feel a prickle of alarm and I would probably avoid doing business with that person again, just to avoid feeling that way again. But I don't think I would go online and tell everyone I know that I am uncomfortable with said business person. Not unless the issue was extreme, like supporting the capture and massacre of animals, or something that would endanger a person's well being phsyically, mentaly, or emotionally, just to use random examples.

That said... when I was a teenager and a newly converted religious person, I felt like I had to spread the news about my religious beliefs to everyone, and that by holding back the Good News, I was somehow dooming the people I was in contact with. I Did send a tract to the one person I sold a model to back then, and thankfully she wrote back and said that she had the same views. We ended up pen pals for a few years and that was a blessing for both of us. It never occured to me that a piece of paper could make someone super uncomfortable, because I was a teenager, a new believer, and I was doing what I felt morally convicted was the right thing to do. That was a long time ago.

Nowadays, I think I would be afraid to put something related to a "Hot Topic" in someone's package because 1: they would have my contact information and they might do something to retaliate (I'm sorry if that upsets anyone, but I've become more paranoid over the years thanks to a few incidents that happened close to home. I don't really feel safe anywhere). 2: I am more aware of how sensitive certain topics are, and why some people feel uncomfortable with them. The horror stories I've read about peoples' experiences have made me question everything I know or thought I knew, while opening my heart to sympathize with almost everyone in every walk of life. I would not want to cause someone stress by reawakening bad memories for them. 3: I agree it is unprofessional. I used to see the Model Horse Hobby and the posts in the Classified as a chance to meet like minded people and make new friends while helping them fill in their collection. I still feel that way to a degree, even though Just About Horses no longer has the Trading Post pages in it. But I am aware that not everyone is "like minded" in the hobby. The hobby is six times larger than I ever imagined it to be. Blab is living proof of that. Look at how many members we have. Look at how many personalities are represented in the Meyer Briggs personality thread.

So I guess my opinion is: related items are okay, like the mini rubber horse one of the online dealers sent with my model order. Pens are fine. Stickers are fun. A note is lovely. But I don't expect anything from anyone; I don't want anyone to have expectations of me and end up failing them; and I don't want to hurt someone by bringing up memories that could cause them stress. I have sent a tract in the past, but I do not plan on sending any to anyone in the present or the future because of the reasons stated above. And if I had a problem with someone, the last thing I would do is go public to open a debate and possibly push potential buyers away from that person. I think that is even more unprofessional and disrespectful than the action that caused offense to begin with. That's all I can think of to say. Thank you for bringing this up, and thank you everyone for your input. I never gave this issue much thought before.

Brenda
11-06-2016, 08:14 PM
Personally, I think it's very inappropriate to include a religious tract or some kind of political item in something you are mailing to someone. If it's printed on a catalog, that's no big deal, but if someone actually puts a flyer such as the Watchtower or something in it, I probably wouldn't buy from you again. I understand being 'recently religious' and excited about spreading the word, but putting it in a package of stuff someone bought from you is not the place to do it. I had a friend who discovered religion and every text I got from her said something about Praise Jesus. I had a hard time texting with her because of that. I'm not anti-Religion, not at all. I just don't like people trying to 'force' their beliefs on me.

as far as other 'extra' items such as a pen related to the item purchased or a nice note or some candy, that's fine. In fact, recently I got a package of items I'd boughten off eBay and there was an extra item in the box. A car air freshener that was related to the items I'd bought. I was surprised because she had that air freshener up for sale on eBay as well.

dizzyriss
11-06-2016, 08:28 PM
I saw the post but didn't get a chance to read the comments. It seems to be deleted now.

Personally, I don't see it as offensive. I'm not a religious person myself, but I am not bothered if other people are. The way I see it is that the sender has found something (religion) that has made them very happy or has changed their life, and I would feel honored that they would think highly enough of me to attempt to share this happiness they have found. I mean, it's just a piece of paper with words on it. Words that meant something to the sender. It may not be for me, but I definately would not publicly put them down for it. I would thank them for being concerned about my well being (since they may truly believe I am unwell with out their belief system) and then move on. No harm done.

If everyone didn't take things so seriously and see things for exactly what they are (a harmless paper with words on it) then the world would be a better place.

Daydream
11-06-2016, 08:51 PM
I sometimes slip a Stablemate or a piece of literature concerning the breed of horse they purchased, if I have it laying around, in with my outgoing shipments. I figure that folks will not mind that. I find that those customers get back in touch with me to purchase more Breyers.

The religious quotes would not bother me. Especially if the item I had purchased was received in good order. :yes And......I need a little extra Jesus where ever I can get it. :hugg

VWK'sanEasyGoer
11-06-2016, 08:54 PM
Very interesting topic to discuss. I enjoyed reading and reflecting on all the posts.

I can see why it's not appropriate in this PC day and age to do something like this but to be honest I personally wouldn't have been bothered at all if it had been me on the receiving end. As long as the included litriture wasn't highly extreme or forceful I feel there are so many negatives in the world nowadays that a little religious solicitation wouldn't make a bleep with me. There are worse thing to solicit right? It probably wouldn't even effect if I bought from them again or not.

Notes and thank you cards are a lovely touch in the hobby. I ran out of personalized stickies to include with my sales horses and I always put them in before that. I think things added give a nice personal touch that connects us as a community. Makes you smile when you open the box.

Something that could be controversial or hit a personal note may be misinterpreted or taken offensively though. And that's OK to feel that way too. But I feel the sellers motivations were probably innocent and genuinly friendly. To get upset to the point of publicly complaining feels too far to me. Goodness it's not mean things they were sending was it?

The world is very easily offended nowadays, perhaps with good reason, but I think it's important to put small things into the perspective of the global point of view - was it really that bad? JMO.

hobocatcreations
11-07-2016, 08:40 AM
Putting religious or political items in with a model horse or any non-religious/political purchase isn't appropriate. A nice thank you note is fine, or a catalog or whatever is pertaining to an order is great. I have gotten a couple packages with extra models, those are great! I get a bit irritated when someone signs a note "god bless" or something as I am not religious at all, but I know lots of people are, so I just overlook it. It's not the end of the world, and something like that I don't see as forcing religion on another.

Candy is a nice thought, and the air freshener someone mentioned, but then you get into the the whole tricky world of allergies. I personally am allergic to a lot of scents, so an air freshener could ruin a purchase for me. One time I received a horse and the packing material smelled of fabric softener. It was terrible, thankfully the horse didn't smell, but I had to dispose of all the packing materials I usually recycle, plus dealing with the headache it caused. It wasn't intentional,, I know, and I have had multiple transactions with the seller.

Gilder
11-07-2016, 08:41 AM
May I skew the question a bit? As all of you know, I am deeply involved in a horsey non-profit. What if I put postcards and/or stickers pertaining to the Haven in my boxes of bases that I send out? Flyers? Would that offend?

SylvanTrails
11-07-2016, 08:51 AM
May I skew the question a bit? As all of you know, I am deeply involved in a horsey non-profit. What if I put postcards and/or stickers pertaining to the Haven in my boxes of bases that I send out? Flyers? Would that offend?

Do I remember that a portion of the sales of the bases goes for Haven? If so, then...no, it would not offend. If not, probably, still, no it would not offend, especially if there were pretty horses on it.

curlinfan
11-07-2016, 09:03 AM
I wouldn't be offended as long as it's a charity or non-profit that benefits horses. Probably wouldn't mind any organization that advocates for animals. Doesn't mean I would donate but I would take time to look through it unless it was PETA or any of the extreme animal rights groups.
I don't think sellers should solicit donations for any religious or political organizations.
I bought a Classic Love race horse off MH$P over the summer. When the box arrived the seller had included old postcards of famous TB's. There was Whirlaway, Citation, Secretariat, Seattle Slew and another I can't remember off the top of my head. There was also some old promotional material for Hollywood Park, which recently shut down & was demolished. I absolutely LOVED that. Emailed her to thank her for it. Very thoughtful.

tinnggg
11-07-2016, 09:27 AM
Frankly I'm more horrified at what passes for packing from some sellers. A while back, I got a box of what looked like shredded pay stubs. They didn't have a nice cross-cut shredder either so you had a good chance of actually reading personal info.

I have...a yahoo group devoted to christmas ornament making. Some time ago, one of the members developed an interest in hinduism or...something...and felt compelled to sign some of us up to her google group. I don't even have a google account. I complained to google. Nothing. My junque folder currently has 235 emails, mostly from this group, and all seem to be forwarded crap. Argh.

Lora
11-07-2016, 09:40 AM
I don't mind as long it's nothing offensive, in rare cases it could put me off purchasing of that person again . shredded paper is horrible as packing material but still better than nothing and I'm usually happy about a box.

Eleda
11-07-2016, 10:08 AM
From a business-person's point of view, sending "personal" material in a shipment to a customer you don't know is inappropriate. Period. That's just Business 101. What's in the package is meant to make the customer feel good about purchasing from you. It's not a podium for your views, it's a transaction.

I know the above comes across harshly - It's not meant to; it's meant simply to be matter of fact. Opening a box should be fun and exciting. If a seller is more concerned with spreading his or her views than transacting the business they're advertising, they're going to lose customers. I see religious tracts and political flyers as an inclusive/exclusive thing. Sure, those who are like-minded will stay with the business, creating their own little inclusive "club" if you will, but those who are made uncomfortable or who disagree with the enclosed paperwork, will, as we've seen here, take future business elsewhere.

We love sending a little treat of Pop Rocks in boxes (Thanks for the Pop Rocks love, Drenarrow!), because models represent memories and magic to us, and so do Pop Rocks. Plus, with the way our models are wrapped, we figure folks may need a snack to get them through the unpacking process! :toothy Yes, it's occurred to us that some of our customers may be diabetic or have allergies that prevent them from enjoying the treat, but those folks can pass them along to a friend (and make that person smile) or just toss them out. It's impossible to tailor treats to match each person's needs, but we make the majority of customers happy with our goodies... And they're my favorite candies, so a few packs may go "missing" from the supply occasionally.:2spy

Recently we've also begun including a note to first-time customers that explains our packaging and the Pop Rocks. Much of our packaging is recycled, as we're working on becoming a certified B-Corp, a designation that shows our business goes out of our way to take care of the environment, animals and people. We collect clean boxes from local businesses, as well as packing materials, so one order may be packed with packing peanuts, while another has bubble wrap stuffing the box. Rather than people thinking we're unprofessional, we've decided to explain that we're re-using materials to keep our carbon footprint small. This is directly related to their purchase, and we're getting great feedback.

I mention the above to show the difference between "personal" and "business" inclusions. Nowhere in our B-Corp note do we tell people that THEY should be recycling or try to press any view upon them... We simply state what we're doing, why, so they understand why their Mustang arrived in a box labeled "Coffee Cup Lids." That's the difference. My suggestion to all sellers is to remember that the transaction is about the buyer, so make their experience a positive one!

redsixwing
11-07-2016, 10:16 AM
From a business-person's point of view, sending "personal" material in a shipment to a customer you don't know is inappropriate. Period. That's just Business 101. What's in the package is meant to make the customer feel good about purchasing from you. It's not a podium for your views, it's a transaction.

^ That. ^

I'm not inclined to distinguish between extreme and not extreme - after all, a perfectly mainline sentiment to one person may be horribly offensive to someone of a different persuasion. Extreme, in other words, is subjective.

Rather, your sale is not something that needs to advertise your deepest values. If I know you personally, I'll happily discuss hot topics (whether or not I agree with you - because politeness in disagreeing is important!) but if I don't? I don't want to know.

In addition, the one-way nature of a box sent from a seller means it's not practical (or likely, wanted) to open a discussion, even if I were inclined to do it. That makes it seem less like an honest attempt at communication and more something like leaving unwanted flyers on someone's car.

.. and really? I don't know a single person who likes having flyers left on their car.

Edit:
Another thought: I don't think this applies to things like email/forum signatures. Those, if I want to reply, I can - and most of the time they're just copypasta anyway, easy to ignore. A flyer in a box, I tend to think is somehow related to the contents of the box, so I also wouldn't likely fuss about an informational pamphlet on, say, horse rehoming or something similar in my plastic pony shipment.

ElreniaGreenleaf
11-07-2016, 10:31 AM
:yeahthat

I'm not on Facebook or the Model Horse Transaction board so I know nothing about what the OP is referencing.

But having said that, IMHO I don't believe a seller should insert their religious or political beliefs (both hot-button issues) into a package they send to a complete stranger. Or even someone they may think they know. I'm not a particularly religious person and I don't like anyone trying to force their religious beliefs (or political beliefs for that matter) on me whether it's a flyer in something I've ordered, someone coming unsolicited to preach at my front door or a political phone call.

I wouldn't go off the deep end as it sounds like the person did but I DO find it inappropriate.


^This.

I'm not religious at all, so someone sending me a pamphlet like that would really annoy me, though as others have said, I'd probably just frown for a moment and chuck it in the bin. I have friends of many different beliefs, and that's fine, I respect that, I have no problem with someone expressing their faith, but shoving it on other people - especially people you don't know! - is wildly inappropriate.

I'd never send someone a leaflet with 'God isn't real!' on it, even though that reflects my own personal beliefs - it's just plain rude, and I would hope nobody would do the same to me!

RRStudios
11-07-2016, 10:31 AM
From a business-person's point of view, sending "personal" material in a shipment to a customer you don't know is inappropriate. Period. That's just Business 101. What's in the package is meant to make the customer feel good about purchasing from you. It's not a podium for your views, it's a transaction.

I know the above comes across harshly - It's not meant to; it's meant simply to be matter of fact. Opening a box should be fun and exciting. If a seller is more concerned with spreading his or her views than transacting the business they're advertising, they're going to lose customers. I see religious tracts and political flyers as an inclusive/exclusive thing. Sure, those who are like-minded will stay with the business, creating their own little inclusive "club" if you will, but those who are made uncomfortable or who disagree with the enclosed paperwork, will, as we've seen here, take future business elsewhere.

We love sending a little treat of Pop Rocks in boxes (Thanks for the Pop Rocks love, Drenarrow!), because models represent memories and magic to us, and so do Pop Rocks. Plus, with the way our models are wrapped, we figure folks may need a snack to get them through the unpacking process! :toothy Yes, it's occurred to us that some of our customers may be diabetic or have allergies that prevent them from enjoying the treat, but those folks can pass them along to a friend (and make that person smile) or just toss them out. It's impossible to tailor treats to match each person's needs, but we make the majority of customers happy with our goodies... And they're my favorite candies, so a few packs may go "missing" from the supply occasionally.:2spy

Recently we've also begun including a note to first-time customers that explains our packaging and the Pop Rocks. Much of our packaging is recycled, as we're working on becoming a certified B-Corp, a designation that shows our business goes out of our way to take care of the environment, animals and people. We collect clean boxes from local businesses, as well as packing materials, so one order may be packed with packing peanuts, while another has bubble wrap stuffing the box. Rather than people thinking we're unprofessional, we've decided to explain that we're re-using materials to keep our carbon footprint small. This is directly related to their purchase, and we're getting great feedback.

I mention the above to show the difference between "personal" and "business" inclusions. Nowhere in our B-Corp note do we tell people that THEY should be recycling or try to press any view upon them... We simply state what we're doing, why, so they understand why their Mustang arrived in a box labeled "Coffee Cup Lids." That's the difference. My suggestion to all sellers is to remember that the transaction is about the buyer, so make their experience a positive one!

I love this idea! My BF and I do a lot of eBay sales, and we get boxes and packing materials from the place where we work. I love getting bubble wrap for free that would just get thrown out, instead of going out and paying high prices for it. They do recycle their cardboard boxes there, but it's still nice to repurpose them, and they are good sturdy boxes. It's great to see a retailer who cares about the environment and not being wasteful. I'll definitely be checking out your online store!

Ghost_Wolf_Ranch
11-07-2016, 10:33 AM
Nope, not OK at all. Unless you're selling religious themed items as a business, keep your religion and business transactions separate. (that's a general "you", not directed at the OP or anyone else here)

Ghost_Wolf_Ranch
11-07-2016, 10:37 AM
I bought a Classic Love race horse off MH$P over the summer. When the box arrived the seller had included old postcards of famous TB's. There was Whirlaway, Citation, Secretariat, Seattle Slew and another I can't remember off the top of my head. There was also some old promotional material for Hollywood Park, which recently shut down & was demolished. I absolutely LOVED that. Emailed her to thank her for it. Very thoughtful.

That's the kind of extras that I would love to see, or send to someone else! :clap

Mary
11-07-2016, 10:40 AM
Mod note FYI - I moved this thread to TTB, just because it's the best place for advice that is transaction related ... and shipping is such a big transaction topic.

TTB is a good place for just asking for advice, as well as getting feedback on a specific transaction. :yes :thumbsup

jettabar99
11-07-2016, 10:57 AM
I personally would be over the top pissed but i wouldn't post - i would however not purchase from that person again. I get very ticked at people who want to shove their beliefs on others.
Or i might send them flyers from one of my beliefs......might as well share.....:devilfire:devilfire:devilfire:devilfire :devilfire:devilfire

Mary
11-07-2016, 11:15 AM
People who include religious, political or other material I really am not interested in seeing - I just accept that, as has been said, they paid the postage and I can throw it away. I will say I order less from any company or individual that I feel is wasteful with all the stuff they send with the order, whether it is 5 catalogs or tracts with their opinions.


I used to have a regular customer who always sent me religious tracts with her checks. (Yeah, this was before Paypal.) I just threw them out.
Years ago, when I was doing a lot of shipping, Iʻd throw in a few wrapped hard candies with each order.

It used to be more common that people were putting candy and/or other edibles into boxes. Not as much now. Now I just request of every shipper that they not include any edibles of any kind. This is a hot and humid climate and those items do not stay in the shape they are sent! :lol Edibles that leak - and almost all of them release at least a few molecules on their way here, often more - affect the contents, and are not pleasant on this end. Those un-asked-for edibles are much more of a problem for me than a few extra pieces of paper that has political or religious content that I don't care about. At least the paper doesn't have to be wiped off the model. I know all the extras have good intentions behind them, though. ;) :)

Mary
11-07-2016, 11:16 AM
I personally would be over the top pissed but i wouldn't post - i would however not purchase from that person again. I get very ticked at people who want to shove their beliefs on others.
Or i might send them flyers from one of my beliefs......might as well share.....:devilfire:devilfire:devilfire:devilfire :devilfire:devilfire

That's a great idea! :lol :lmao

soupyhorses
11-07-2016, 11:19 AM
Oh. I wouldn't include any religious or political things, ever. I have included extra stablemates, breyer magnets, etc. in large orders before.

jettabar99
11-07-2016, 11:23 AM
Oh. I wouldn't include any religious or political things, ever. I have included extra stablemates, breyer magnets, etc. in large orders before.

I have done that too - mainly for people i know however
I would never include edibles.....since i already ate them!

FriesianFury
11-07-2016, 11:42 AM
I saw the post and responded to it. I felt it was down right tacky and to the point of bulling/shaming the seller by posting the person name just because she got a stupid paper that had religion on it. Its a piece of paper, burnable, spray paint on it, throw it away. Do as you will but its far from, in her words "jamming" ones religion down ones throat as she put it, since she didn't have to read it. Crap I don't like it when people wrap my item wrong or put darn shredded paper in as packaging. I don't find it a point to get my panties in a bunch and go all crazy and slam the person for it. Just move on with my life with less stress.

It's that said type of person mind setting that had stopped me all together from sending out Christmas cards. I also posted this on that same thread. About 5 years ago I sent out Christmas cards to a large number of hobby people. On the card was a Nativity scene that said "Christmas blessing". I had pissed off this person an "atheists" person as they told me and they felt the need to wright me a nasty email how I am "jamming" my religion down their throat and many others in this day and age. Mind you I have friends in all type of religions, even atheists and none have ever stooped this low or was that ungrateful over a darn card on Christmas. So because of that person I no longer send out ANY TYPE OF CARDS for any type of holidays. I no longer do any type of gift giving on holidays either cause gosh forbid I get someone with thin skin and takes my gift the wrong way.

allykatd
11-07-2016, 11:55 AM
I saw the post and responded to it. I felt it was down right tacky and to the point of bulling/shaming the seller by posting the person name just because she got a stupid paper that had religion on it. Its a piece of paper, burnable, spray paint on it, throw it away. Do as you will but its far from, in her words "jamming" ones religion down ones throat as she put it, since she didn't have to read it. Crap I don't like it when people wrap my item wrong or put darn shredded paper in as packaging. I don't find it a point to get my panties in a bunch and go all crazy and slam the person for it. Just move on with my life with less stress.

It's that said type of person mind setting that had stopped me all together from sending out Christmas cards. I also posted this on that same thread. About 5 years ago I sent out Christmas cards to a large number of hobby people. On the card was a Nativity scene that said "Christmas blessing". I had pissed off this person an "atheists" person as they told me and they felt the need to wright me a nasty email how I am "jamming" my religion down their throat and many others in this day and age. Mind you I have friends in all type of religions, even atheists and none have ever stooped this low or was that ungrateful over a darn card on Christmas. So because of that person I no longer send out ANY TYPE OF CARDS for any type of holidays. I no longer do any type of gift giving on holidays either cause gosh forbid I get someone with thin skin and takes my gift the wrong way.

I get Christmas cards, Hanukkah cards and general 'happy holiday' cards from various friends of varying religions. I find these all wonderful and I'm pleased that my friends are thinking of me even though I'm neither jewish or christian, I take it in the spirit it was sent. I put all the holiday cards I get on display.

I completely agree that the posting on the Transaction board was really inappropriate. I'm so glad the moderators quckly removed it, but it did pique my interest because I'd had several incidences of that nature. I simply threw the stuff away, but I wondered why they felt it necessary to include it in a model horse transaction to a stranger. Like I've said, I would never include something so personal in mail to a stranger. My beliefs are not sharable nor open to debate or opinion so I keep them to myself.

However, what I did want to talk about by bringing it up again, is to discuss what other people felt about it. A card from a friend is one thing (if someone responded angrily to your greeting card that's on them, not you) but political or religious tracts from a stranger is a different conversation.

FriesianFury
11-07-2016, 12:00 PM
I don't mind what someone sends. Its my choice if I want to read it or not, but in the end I tend to use those extra papers for horse bases I paint or under horses if the paper is big enough, so it saves me from having to buy paper in the end :lmao

FourWindsFarm
11-07-2016, 12:13 PM
Small thank you note, stablemate, well-wrapped candy (so it won't melt on the model) or other nice add-in--- fine. Religious or political items--- not fine.

I ordered an item from an acquaintance on FB last year, and it came accompanied by a rosary and a small bible.... I asked her if the items had been in the box mistakenly as it just seemed so odd, and she proceeded to explain that "I don't see Jesus memes on your Facebook, and thought you could use some saving since you must not be a Christian." Uh, yeah.... actually I am, but I have issues with a lot of things done in the name of Christianity and don't think I need to be putting religious stuff on social media, period. I unfriended her and will not order again. That level of pretentiousness is just crass.

JRT Mom
11-07-2016, 12:58 PM
Inappropriate or not, I think it takes way more energy to make a fuss over it than it does to just throw it away and be done with it. :dunno

And there you go! We have a winner! Agreed.

JRT Mom
11-07-2016, 12:59 PM
Small thank you note, stablemate, well-wrapped candy (so it won't melt on the model) or other nice add-in--- fine. Religious or political items--- not fine.

I ordered an item from an acquaintance on FB last year, and it came accompanied by a rosary and a small bible.... I asked her if the items had been in the box mistakenly as it just seemed so odd, and she proceeded to explain that "I don't see Jesus memes on your Facebook, and thought you could use some saving since you must not be a Christian." Uh, yeah.... actually I am, but I have issues with a lot of things done in the name of Christianity and don't think I need to be putting religious stuff on social media, period. I unfriended her and will not order again. That level of pretentiousness is just crass.

Yep. That's over the edge in my book. Like that's going to urge anyone who's not a Christian towards the faith. Um, nope.

jettabar99
11-07-2016, 01:07 PM
I saw the post and responded to it. I felt it was down right tacky and to the point of bulling/shaming the seller by posting the person name just because she got a stupid paper that had religion on it. Its a piece of paper, burnable, spray paint on it, throw it away. Do as you will but its far from, in her words "jamming" ones religion down ones throat as she put it, since she didn't have to read it. Crap I don't like it when people wrap my item wrong or put darn shredded paper in as packaging. I don't find it a point to get my panties in a bunch and go all crazy and slam the person for it. Just move on with my life with less stress.

It's that said type of person mind setting that had stopped me all together from sending out Christmas cards. I also posted this on that same thread. About 5 years ago I sent out Christmas cards to a large number of hobby people. On the card was a Nativity scene that said "Christmas blessing". I had pissed off this person an "atheists" person as they told me and they felt the need to wright me a nasty email how I am "jamming" my religion down their throat and many others in this day and age. Mind you I have friends in all type of religions, even atheists and none have ever stooped this low or was that ungrateful over a darn card on Christmas. So because of that person I no longer send out ANY TYPE OF CARDS for any type of holidays. I no longer do any type of gift giving on holidays either cause gosh forbid I get someone with thin skin and takes my gift the wrong way.

I am an atheist and you can send me Christmas cards any time. I have no problem at all with people of various faiths - as long as they're nice to others and don't hate people that don't fit into their faith. The ONLY thing i dont like about Christmas is the greed and money people think they have to spend. I find it sad. Turning a holiday into a "you must buy stuff for everyone" holiday is wrong. ( i work with retailers and its the big time of year - so i guess it helps the economy)

So everyone can send me Christmas or Hanukkah cards :-) I dont usually get many - so sad......

RedMorgan
11-07-2016, 01:10 PM
I've gotten religious info from ebay sellers, thanks, but no thanks, right in the trash.....and no candy either, I'm diabetic....

BuckR.
11-07-2016, 01:11 PM
I agree, JRT. For a season I was a bellringer. Worst job on the face of the planet. Anyway, it was bearable when people gave me food or a got drink. Some gave me small gift cards. Anyway, I had one person put a little money in and then press a card in my hand, saying it was for me. I got all excited until... I saw it was a tract. I was not amused. I wanted to say, "Lady, the ship's in the port!" But I didn't. I had someone else offer me a tract, and I refused. I'm a Christian myself, but i can tell you a warm drink went so much farther in my mind than a cheesy tract. Just my opinion. I've seen people leave tracts at restaurants in lieu of a tip. I assure you, it has the opposite effect!!! Case in point, live out your faith, don't cram it down people's throats!

BuckR.
11-07-2016, 01:13 PM
The only gifts I send anyone with their order is a SM or something related to what they bought. And I remember reading somewhere that doing anything else is against eBay's and I think USPSs policy. What if they were allergic to what you sent?!

BuckR.
11-07-2016, 01:15 PM
Small thank you note, stablemate, well-wrapped candy (so it won't melt on the model) or other nice add-in--- fine. Religious or political items--- not fine.

I ordered an item from an acquaintance on FB last year, and it came accompanied by a rosary and a small bible.... I asked her if the items had been in the box mistakenly as it just seemed so odd, and she proceeded to explain that "I don't see Jesus memes on your Facebook, and thought you could use some saving since you must not be a Christian." Uh, yeah.... actually I am, but I have issues with a lot of things done in the name of Christianity and don't think I need to be putting religious stuff on social media, period. I unfriended her and will not order again. That level of pretentiousness is just crass.

Holy cow!!! :bigeyes That's just... I have no words!!

FriesianFury
11-07-2016, 01:19 PM
I am an atheist and you can send me Christmas cards any time. I have no problem at all with people of various faiths - as long as they're nice to others and don't hate people that don't fit into their faith. The ONLY thing i dont like about Christmas is the greed and money people think they have to spend. I find it sad. Turning a holiday into a "you must buy stuff for everyone" holiday is wrong. ( i work with retailers and its the big time of year - so i guess it helps the economy)

So everyone can send me Christmas or Hanukkah cards :-) I dont usually get many - so sad......

Agreed we hate the hole "you must have a gift" or you have to spend money to please at that time of year. We have been making it a point in our house for our kids to give and help and we don't get our kids much gifts either, there is more to life then spending your savings on petty things that loose there value.

jettabar99
11-07-2016, 01:19 PM
Ok no one is saying it but i have to

JUST PUT MONEY IN MY PACKAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JRT Mom
11-07-2016, 01:22 PM
This is interesting! When I was searching for another sheltie, I was recommended to a breeder in WA State. I went to her web site, and on every page, she had some notation from the Bible on the web site! Yes, on the sheltie web site! I was a bit taken aback! What did the Bible have to do with shelties? She was excited to have me looking over her kennel. But i just could not get the thought of the Bible citations out of my head... I wasn't sure what it meant... it had to mean something for her to take the time to add them... I asked a couple of people and they really were not sure, except that she was religious. Religious is fine, but to go so far as to cite the Bible on a dog web site? And then not make mention of her religious views in her about page.... I just had to move on to another breeder... I guess I needed full disclosure...

And, there are probably some people who would pick her as a breeder over anyone else BECAUSE of her Scripture references on her site. It takes all kinds.

And, I don't see anything wrong with either decision....we all make choices based on feelings, what we like or don't like, etc. Some people are drawn towards others of the same though process (i.e. a black person picking a black owned business, a gay person picking a gay owned or operated business over another) as theirs and truly, that's okay!

Too each his own....just don't expect everyone to think like you do or force your viewpoints down peoples' throats. One thing about free speech and free will, if you CHOOSE to showcase your particular point of view thru your business or business dealings, you run the risk of turning someone off just as much as you might draw someone in.

As I often remind people, you are welcome to freely speak your mind and express your views, but you are not exempt from the ramifications of that speech or views.

jettabar99
11-07-2016, 01:29 PM
I find it interesting that so many people with various views and faiths all find this a very bad idea. And agree that posting against it publicly - also a very bad idea.
I think that putting it on a website that is not religious based - also a bad idea unless you only want to deal with people like you.

Mary
11-07-2016, 01:30 PM
May I skew the question a bit? As all of you know, I am deeply involved in a horsey non-profit. What if I put postcards and/or stickers pertaining to the Haven in my boxes of bases that I send out? Flyers? Would that offend?

It wouldn't offend me. And it's related to horses, so I wouldn't see it as odd, either.

Mary
11-07-2016, 01:38 PM
Because of the culture I grew up in, I know why some people just insist on putting religious information into everything, appropriate or not ... missing that they are doing their cause more harm than good (in my opinion anyway) !!! :lol I know that they have been schooled, taught, pressured, and asked to account for how they are 'spreading the word'. Knowing that, I find it easy to forgive and move on even if I don't agree with what they are doing, at all.

I can also understand how someone who receives that material would find it unwelcome, extremely so. I get how it can be taken as offensive and overbearing.

It's almost kind of sad, as I see it, that people who believe they are reaching out are actually alienating others. But to each their own. :)

micamoney
11-07-2016, 01:57 PM
I am a Christian, and I am proud to identify myself as one. I try to live out my faith through my actions and words with anyone I meet.

That being said, I believe there is a time and a place for spreading what I believe to be true. If someone buys something from me, I will usually leave a little note in the box, thanking the person for their purchase, and I might put a Bible verse at the end or a "God Bless" above my name. I try my hardest not to go overboard with anything because I don't want to offend or alienate anyone because of my faith.

I'm going to echo what others have said. It seems that it takes more energy to complain about getting the tract and be offended by it than to just throw it in the trash and disregard it. The person sending the tract sent it because she/he felt it was the right thing to do. And if one person's "right thing" is to demean her for that tract on a public site and get offended by it, okay. I honestly think the buyer took things way out of proportion and got offended far too easily. Better to just brush it off and throw it away.

ElreniaGreenleaf
11-07-2016, 02:24 PM
Small thank you note, stablemate, well-wrapped candy (so it won't melt on the model) or other nice add-in--- fine. Religious or political items--- not fine.

I ordered an item from an acquaintance on FB last year, and it came accompanied by a rosary and a small bible.... I asked her if the items had been in the box mistakenly as it just seemed so odd, and she proceeded to explain that "I don't see Jesus memes on your Facebook, and thought you could use some saving since you must not be a Christian." Uh, yeah.... actually I am, but I have issues with a lot of things done in the name of Christianity and don't think I need to be putting religious stuff on social media, period. I unfriended her and will not order again. That level of pretentiousness is just crass.

That is just...wow. O_O

FourWindsFarm
11-07-2016, 02:39 PM
From a business-person's point of view, sending "personal" material in a shipment to a customer you don't know is inappropriate. Period. That's just Business 101. What's in the package is meant to make the customer feel good about purchasing from you. It's not a podium for your views, it's a transaction.

I know the above comes across harshly - It's not meant to; it's meant simply to be matter of fact. Opening a box should be fun and exciting. If a seller is more concerned with spreading his or her views than transacting the business they're advertising, they're going to lose customers. I see religious tracts and political flyers as an inclusive/exclusive thing. Sure, those who are like-minded will stay with the business, creating their own little inclusive "club" if you will, but those who are made uncomfortable or who disagree with the enclosed paperwork, will, as we've seen here, take future business elsewhere.

We love sending a little treat of Pop Rocks in boxes (Thanks for the Pop Rocks love, Drenarrow!), because models represent memories and magic to us, and so do Pop Rocks. Plus, with the way our models are wrapped, we figure folks may need a snack to get them through the unpacking process! :toothy Yes, it's occurred to us that some of our customers may be diabetic or have allergies that prevent them from enjoying the treat, but those folks can pass them along to a friend (and make that person smile) or just toss them out. It's impossible to tailor treats to match each person's needs, but we make the majority of customers happy with our goodies... And they're my favorite candies, so a few packs may go "missing" from the supply occasionally.:2spy

Recently we've also begun including a note to first-time customers that explains our packaging and the Pop Rocks. Much of our packaging is recycled, as we're working on becoming a certified B-Corp, a designation that shows our business goes out of our way to take care of the environment, animals and people. We collect clean boxes from local businesses, as well as packing materials, so one order may be packed with packing peanuts, while another has bubble wrap stuffing the box. Rather than people thinking we're unprofessional, we've decided to explain that we're re-using materials to keep our carbon footprint small. This is directly related to their purchase, and we're getting great feedback.

I mention the above to show the difference between "personal" and "business" inclusions. Nowhere in our B-Corp note do we tell people that THEY should be recycling or try to press any view upon them... We simply state what we're doing, why, so they understand why their Mustang arrived in a box labeled "Coffee Cup Lids." That's the difference. My suggestion to all sellers is to remember that the transaction is about the buyer, so make their experience a positive one!

I agree completely. I also like it when a company will send a reminder that they do use recycled packaging material so people know what to expect, and so they aren't alarmed when an item shows up on some other box. I don't think putting in little extras that pertain to the purchase is a problem-- the religious material I received would not have been alarming had it shown up with other religious materials, but not a custom dog leash.... that seemed odd. Horse-related items, little notes, candy, etc. I would not consider a problem. I put soap samples (when I have them) in with orders for my soaps/lotions, etc. and people love them, but I do try to tailor it to the customer-- if their order includes all unscented items, I usually won't put in a scented sample, for example.

JulieB
11-07-2016, 03:00 PM
I have been reading through this thread with great interest and considering all the responses before I wrote anything. I am a Christian, and it is something that impacts every part of my life. I wouldn't ever go so far as to put something so bold as the rosary and Bible or a tract into a box with a model I was shipping. That being said, my business card does have a small "fish" symbol on it in one corner, and my website has one Bible verse on it. I hope that no one would consider that forcing my beliefs on them and I hope it would not keep anyone from dealing with me. I've met and dealt with some super people from all walks of life over the years in this hobby/business/etc.

FourWindsFarm
11-07-2016, 03:03 PM
Want to watch one's friends and family look at you strangely and wonder what's up? Mistakenly buy Hannukah stamps for all of your Christmas cards, lol. When I bought them, I was in a hurry and it looked like a candle on a pretty blue background... upon closer inspection midway through card-sending, I realized it was actually part of a mennorah :-) Oh well. It made for some interesting conversation :-)

JulieB
11-07-2016, 03:10 PM
Want to watch one's friends and family look at you strangely and wonder what's up? Mistakenly buy Hannukah stamps for all of your Christmas cards, lol. When I bought them, I was in a hurry and it looked like a candle on a pretty blue background... upon closer inspection midway through card-sending, I realized it was actually part of a mennorah :-) Oh well. It made for some interesting conversation :-)

Hehe...no doubt that was interesting. :) I am still getting used to our daughter converting to messianic judaism and am constantly learning about all the festivals and observations. It really kinda tickled me though when she said she would like an onion chopper for Hannukah.

isalrae
11-07-2016, 03:12 PM
I have been reading through this thread with great interest and considering all the responses before I wrote anything. I am a Christian, and it is something that impacts every part of my life. I wouldn't ever go so far as to put something so bold as the rosary and Bible or a tract into a box with a model I was shipping. That being said, my business card does have a small "fish" symbol on it in one corner, and my website has one Bible verse on it. I hope that no one would consider that forcing my beliefs on them and I hope it would not keep anyone from dealing with me. I've met and dealt with some super people from all walks of life over the years in this hobby/business/etc.
That sort of thing doesn't bother me, and I'm sure not many others either. If they want to express that they believe in that - go for it! That'd be as harmless as wearing a cross pendant or putting a fish symbol bumper sticker on their car. Or whatever other religion symbols in a place that just shows they are a part of it. Totally fine and nonintrusive.

In this case it was a whole pamphlet talking about why Christianity is right and why they needed it in their life, stuff like that. It was a lot further than just showing their faith, it was trying to sway the other's opinion. That's too far in my opinion, especially in this case where the person had no way to refuse it and it just came with a completely unrelated thing. Not worth getting mad on a public forum about it, but I can see why they'd be offended.

isalrae
11-07-2016, 03:19 PM
Hehe...no doubt that was interesting. :) I am still getting used to our daughter converting to messianic judaism and am constantly learning about all the festivals and observations. It really kinda tickled me though when she said she would like an onion chopper for Hannukah.
I was able to grow up with both worlds. My mom and her family were catholic, my dad and his family were jewish. As a kid this was great because I got double the presents and treats it seemed :lol But I was able to learn about and participate in both, without either side pressuring me into one side or the other. It worked out very amicably. In December there'd be a menorah in one window, a Christmas tree in the other :)

I never fully converted to either, I don't consider myself an atheist but I'm not quite religious either. At one point my dad even "tried out" Hinduism for a bit and I joined him temporarily, so I've been a bit of everything. I never mind people expressing their faith, I just mind if someone tries their hardest to convert me, which has happened a handful of times. I'll choose for myself whenever I'd like to, if I ever do. And it won't be because someone included a pamphlet in with my hobby purchase :lol

Jocelyn
11-07-2016, 05:23 PM
Yeah, religious and/or political materials... nope nope nope. I haven't personally had it happen to me but if I were to receive something like that in a package with a purchase, I'd be avoiding that seller in the future. Honestly, even something like bible verses in a sales ad is a turn off for me. A business transaction is not the time or place for that.

Did anyone else see the anti-vaxxer pamphlets that someone was leaving around the CHIN at Breyerfest this year? That pissed me off. The one week everyone in the hobby can come together and celebrate plastic ponies in harmony regardless of their age, religion, political beliefts, sexual orientation, etc... to try to throw a wrench in that is in really poor taste.

pipperroo
11-07-2016, 07:46 PM
Did anyone else see the anti-vaxxer pamphlets that someone was leaving around the CHIN at Breyerfest this year? That pissed me off. The one week everyone in the hobby can come together and celebrate plastic ponies in harmony regardless of their age, religion, political beliefts, sexual orientation, etc... to try to throw a wrench in that is in really poor taste.

Yes.

I started seeking them out, and ripping them up. I even found several in the bathrooms at the Horse park.

Whysome
11-07-2016, 07:51 PM
I think something to also keep in mind with the person posting about it, is you just don't know what led up to the post. Sometimes what "sets" someone off is the whole chain of events leading up to it. About 5-6 years ago, I helped my extended family pull 2 cousins out of a "christian" cult. It took months and years of hard work, blood, sweat and tears. I was not feeling that charitable towards any organized religion afterwards. We had an unlucky week where people were coming onto my college campus and telling us we're all going to hell cause we're, you know, college kids. The lady handing out Bibles on Thursday? I wound up yelling at her. She wasn't really doing anything wrong, but she was telling everyone how their life would be better with a Bible. Did I overreact? Yeah, fully admit that. But that was the straw that sorta broke the floodgates about everything else that was going on.

Without seeing the posting, or knowing anything else, maybe this was just too much for the OP, and they needed to rant. This kinda goes along with the whole, if it's not related don't include it for shipping materials. I get you might be very happy with your religion, and I know I'm not phrasing this quite right, but not everyone is going to feel the same way. Religion and politics are two assumptions people should be pretty careful about making.

Breyer Fire
11-07-2016, 09:18 PM
I'm not religious and would ignore the religious extras in my package. I would prefer not having religious pamphlets stuffed in my box, but it would not deter me from a sale - especially if I got a good deal! I like good deals.

I put freebees in my e-bay packages sometimes. I have given stickers, stablemates, cards and even shirts ( one girl bought a top from me and I put an extra one in the box for her as a surprise )

I have a friend at work that leaves religious pamphlets on my desk all the time. I have been very tempted to leave a copy of On the Origin of Species or The Human Story on her desk. My old job used to have meetings about the presidency and who we should vote for. They would even send propaganda in our pay checks. It went in the trash.

Beethovens7th
11-07-2016, 10:08 PM
i think the reason it was so offensive to have received religious literature in their package is because we have been so conditioned for so long to "Take God and prayer" out of everything these days... So of course it is no wonder the recipient was offended!

That being said, i would not have done this. If a person is interested, (in Christianity and the Bible) they will say so! Then and only then will i give reason for the hope that is within me. :yes

FriesianFury
11-08-2016, 08:12 AM
I think something to also keep in mind with the person posting about it, is you just don't know what led up to the post. Sometimes what "sets" someone off is the whole chain of events leading up to it. About 5-6 years ago, I helped my extended family pull 2 cousins out of a "christian" cult. It took months and years of hard work, blood, sweat and tears. I was not feeling that charitable towards any organized religion afterwards. We had an unlucky week where people were coming onto my college campus and telling us we're all going to hell cause we're, you know, college kids. The lady handing out Bibles on Thursday? I wound up yelling at her. She wasn't really doing anything wrong, but she was telling everyone how their life would be better with a Bible. Did I overreact? Yeah, fully admit that. But that was the straw that sorta broke the floodgates about everything else that was going on.

Without seeing the posting, or knowing anything else, maybe this was just too much for the OP, and they needed to rant. This kinda goes along with the whole, if it's not related don't include it for shipping materials. I get you might be very happy with your religion, and I know I'm not phrasing this quite right, but not everyone is going to feel the same way. Religion and politics are two assumptions people should be pretty careful about making.

I think most would of been fine with her rant if she didn't go out of her way to make sure she posted the seller name in that rant that put that paper in the box. Then one of the comments the OP even stated she hopes this seller looses business cause of that paper. If she would of just made the rant without the seller full name and that second comment I myself would of been more understanding, but what I got from her post was someone out to personal set harm towards someone business/sales cause she felt that she was getting religious jammed down her throat over one piece of paper that really meant no harm.

jettabar99
11-08-2016, 09:05 AM
i think the reason it was so offensive to have received religious literature in their package is because we have been so conditioned for so long to "Take God and prayer" out of everything these days... So of course it is no wonder the recipient was offended!

That being said, i would not have done this. If a person is interested, (in Christianity and the Bible) they will say so! Then and only then will i give reason for the hope that is within me. :yes

I dont know - you give that "hope that is within you " (to own every breyer every made) visible daily :grabby

Beethovens7th
11-08-2016, 09:15 AM
I dont know - you give that "hope that is within you " (to own every breyer every made) visible daily :grabby

:roflmao Oh dang it, man! You know me all too well!!

Lora
11-08-2016, 09:45 AM
Getting upset about a piece of paper is a bit over the top, I mean i use newspaper as packing material sometimes if I have no peanuts or not enough. Should I read all the newspaper just in case a church decided to by a page and print some religious stuff on there ? Or check for other possible controversial content ? where do you stop ?
I can throw the piece of paper away... may be if it is a personal insult on the paper I'd be a bit more mad... or extremists stuff

Ulla Harneit

jettabar99
11-08-2016, 09:59 AM
Getting upset about a piece of paper is a bit over the top, I mean i use newspaper as packing material sometimes if I have no peanuts or not enough. Should I read all the newspaper just in case a church decided to by a page and print some religious stuff on there ? Or check for other possible controversial content ? where do you stop ?
I can throw the piece of paper away... may be if it is a personal insult on the paper I'd be a bit more mad... or extremists stuff

Ulla Harneit

Yup - getting outwardly upset to the point of causing a rukus - silliness. It only affects your mental state of happiness. I would have huffed and it, tossed it and been ticked (for about a minute). The only lasting thing is i would not deal with that person again (unless she 'really' had the model i wanted and couldn't find it elsewhere - lol) I think i would feel sad for her more than anything to know she is not smart enough to understand better and has to live in that little tight world.

Eviejean
11-08-2016, 10:39 AM
I think most would of been fine with her rant if she didn't go out of her way to make sure she posted the seller name in that rant that put that paper in the box. Then one of the comments the OP even stated she hopes this seller looses business cause of that paper. If she would of just made the rant without the seller full name and that second comment I myself would of been more understanding, but what I got from her post was someone out to personal set harm towards someone business/sales cause she felt that she was getting religious jammed down her throat over one piece of paper that really meant no harm.
Like I said before, I can't see Facebook posts but
reading that the buyer listed the sellers full name and stated she wanted the seller to lose business over this??
As much as I feel putting the pamplet in the box was inappropriate, so is what the buyer posted!

Maybe the buyer needs to step back and think about all things that are appropriate and inappropriate...
How about contacting the seller PRIVATELY and discussing the matter in a civil manner??

Whysome
11-08-2016, 12:22 PM
Yeah, I hadn't seen the posting, so putting the full name out there and hoping they loose business is a little extreme.

Miss Susan
11-08-2016, 12:38 PM
Getting upset about a piece of paper is a bit over the top, I mean i use newspaper as packing material sometimes if I have no peanuts or not enough. Should I read all the newspaper just in case a church decided to by a page and print some religious stuff on there ? Or check for other possible controversial content ? where do you stop ?
I can throw the piece of paper away... may be if it is a personal insult on the paper I'd be a bit more mad... or extremists stuff

Ulla Harneit

There is a difference. One is deliberate, the other is undeliberate.

Should the person post an attack on Facebook? I don't think so.

PixelPerfectStables
11-08-2016, 02:09 PM
I would say that any extras related to the purchase would be acceptable, such as pony pouches, model accessories, horse related art, etc. as long as it doesn't add too much weight to the package. Adding other things might be okay if you know the person that you are selling to well enough and you want to surprise them with a gift. If it's a stranger...maybe, depending on what it is? But in general I would say probably not in case the buyer doesn't like the extras. And anything that pursues a completely unrelated agenda would be a no. To me it also seems a tad unprofessional. If I buy something on eBay, I expect that my package will show up packed well, and with what I ordered, not also having a bunch of things I can't or won't use- especially not something that makes me feel like I'm being recruited for some group I have no intention of being a part of. As far as posting about it online...eh I take it with a grain of salt. More of a disclaimer than a complaint, if I were to do it. "So-and-so included this in my package, just so you're aware that they do it, make your own decisions about if you want to buy from them or not". Honestly I might want to make note of it even if it didn't bug me personally, since it's kind of strange and other people might want the heads up.

HorseshoeFarms
11-08-2016, 02:17 PM
The only thing that I have included in my packages to buyers are cards that say "Thank you for doing business with me. I hope you enjoy your new model."

Brenda
11-08-2016, 04:18 PM
May I skew the question a bit? As all of you know, I am deeply involved in a horsey non-profit. What if I put postcards and/or stickers pertaining to the Haven in my boxes of bases that I send out? Flyers? Would that offend?


Do I remember that a portion of the sales of the bases goes for Haven? If so, then...no, it would not offend. If not, probably, still, no it would not offend, especially if there were pretty horses on it.

Not in the slightest bit. Your stickers / flyers / postcards are relevant to the item being purchased and you aren't seeking donations by doing that, you're letting people know about the charity and letting people know that a portion of the sales goes to Mims. Now, if I was buying, like, a Star Wars toy and you included something like that, that might be "offensive" (not really but head scratching "why is this here?") unless the information included says part of the profit from the sale will go to Mims. That's totally different, though, than including something religious or political.

Brenda
11-08-2016, 04:40 PM
i think the reason it was so offensive to have received religious literature in their package is because we have been so conditioned for so long to "Take God and prayer" out of everything these days... So of course it is no wonder the recipient was offended!

That being said, i would not have done this. If a person is interested, (in Christianity and the Bible) they will say so! Then and only then will i give reason for the hope that is within me. :yes

I don't know that I agree with this. It might be more of a generational thing, but those of us who've been around longer have more of an "I don't care" type of attitude and aren't going to take God and religion out of everything. I know plenty of people my age and older who aren't afraid to speak up about it and not care who they offend since it's their right to speak about their religion. I have a friend at work. Much of her Facebook includes religious stuff, but when we chat in emails or in person, she doesn't talk about it. I'm not anti-religion, I'm just not religious. Haven't been in many years. So weeding through that stuff to get to the posts I AM interested in can be a bit difficult.

And for the people who say it's a waste of energy to get upset about inappropriate stuff being included in a package... It might be a waste of YOUR energy, but please don't say it's a waste of energy or not worth getting upset over. You're painting with too broad of a brush. If I want to get upset over it...rip-roaring upset...that's not a waste of MY energy, thank you very much. There aren't many things I'll get rip-roaring upset over, but it's still not a waste of MY energy if I do. Thank you.

Eviejean
11-08-2016, 05:05 PM
And for the people who say it's a waste of energy to get upset about inappropriate stuff being included in a package... It might be a waste of YOUR energy, but please don't say it's a waste of energy or not worth getting upset over. You're painting with too broad of a brush. If I want to get upset over it...rip-roaring upset...that's not a waste of MY energy, thank you very much. There aren't many things I'll get rip-roaring upset over, but it's still not a waste of MY energy if I do. Thank you. (snip)

:agreed
My attitude about things and my choice, if that's what I so choose...
Right or wrong (to anyone else), it's a freedom that can't be taken away!

Beethovens7th
11-08-2016, 05:43 PM
I don't know that I agree with this. It might be more of a generational thing, but those of us who've been around longer have more of an "I don't care" type of attitude and aren't going to take God and religion out of everything. I know plenty of people my age and older who aren't afraid to speak up about it and not care who they offend since it's their right to speak about their religion. I have a friend at work. Much of her Facebook includes religious stuff, but when we chat in emails or in person, she doesn't talk about it. I'm not anti-religion, I'm just not religious. Haven't been in many years. So weeding through that stuff to get to the posts I AM interested in can be a bit difficult.

Eh? i dunno. i'm thinking the person would not have been upset by this had it happened 25 years ago...

Makoshika
11-09-2016, 02:31 AM
Most of the time I don't care one way or the other on religious fliers as long as they are of a positive nature. I may not find them the most appropriate venue for spreading your message, but as long as the message is a upbeat or kind one and the rest of the transaction has been positive, I see no harm. I have no strong feeling about it. However, I will be completely honest, those "Chick Tracts" (the ones that look like little comic books) will instantly make me bristle. When my grandfather died, a preacher sent one to my mother in a sympathy card. Only it wasn't a "sorry you lost your dad" condolence message. It was a "sorry your dad is now burning in hell since he wasn't a member of our church". Even though my grandfather was a regular church goer, it was apparently not the "right" church. THAT was the message this man sent to the woman who had just lost her only parent and the most positive influence in her life. So I can completely understand not wanting any sort of religious pamphlets included, especially if one has had a negative experience previously. It's been over a dozen years since that tract and just the sight of one of those little books makes my blood pressure rise. :(

ElreniaGreenleaf
11-09-2016, 03:19 AM
Most of the time I don't care one way or the other on religious fliers as long as they are of a positive nature. I may not find them the most appropriate venue for spreading your message, but as long as the message is a upbeat or kind one and the rest of the transaction has been positive, I see no harm. I have no strong feeling about it. However, I will be completely honest, those "Chick Tracts" (the ones that look like little comic books) will instantly make me bristle. When my grandfather died, a preacher sent one to my mother in a sympathy card. Only it wasn't a "sorry you lost your dad" condolence message. It was a "sorry your dad is now burning in hell since he wasn't a member of our church". Even though my grandfather was a regular church goer, it was apparently not the "right" church. THAT was the message this man sent to the woman who had just lost her only parent and the most positive influence in her life. So I can completely understand not wanting any sort of religious pamphlets included, especially if one has had a negative experience previously. It's been over a dozen years since that tract and just the sight of one of those little books makes my blood pressure rise. :(

That is disgusting, your poor mum! :(

BuckR.
11-09-2016, 03:38 AM
Most of the time I don't care one way or the other on religious fliers as long as they are of a positive nature. I may not find them the most appropriate venue for spreading your message, but as long as the message is a upbeat or kind one and the rest of the transaction has been positive, I see no harm. I have no strong feeling about it. However, I will be completely honest, those "Chick Tracts" (the ones that look like little comic books) will instantly make me bristle. When my grandfather died, a preacher sent one to my mother in a sympathy card. Only it wasn't a "sorry you lost your dad" condolence message. It was a "sorry your dad is now burning in hell since he wasn't a member of our church". Even though my grandfather was a regular church goer, it was apparently not the "right" church. THAT was the message this man sent to the woman who had just lost her only parent and the most positive influence in her life. So I can completely understand not wanting any sort of religious pamphlets included, especially if one has had a negative experience previously. It's been over a dozen years since that tract and just the sight of one of those little books makes my blood pressure rise. :(

I am sorry to hear this. I had those things with an intense hatred. The doctrine is flawed, and to be honest, they kinda creep me out. Again, my condolences for the loss of your grandfather, and the fact that a nitwit put you through that! :mad

jettabar99
11-09-2016, 08:01 AM
Most of the time I don't care one way or the other on religious fliers as long as they are of a positive nature. I may not find them the most appropriate venue for spreading your message, but as long as the message is a upbeat or kind one and the rest of the transaction has been positive, I see no harm. I have no strong feeling about it. However, I will be completely honest, those "Chick Tracts" (the ones that look like little comic books) will instantly make me bristle. When my grandfather died, a preacher sent one to my mother in a sympathy card. Only it wasn't a "sorry you lost your dad" condolence message. It was a "sorry your dad is now burning in hell since he wasn't a member of our church". Even though my grandfather was a regular church goer, it was apparently not the "right" church. THAT was the message this man sent to the woman who had just lost her only parent and the most positive influence in her life. So I can completely understand not wanting any sort of religious pamphlets included, especially if one has had a negative experience previously. It's been over a dozen years since that tract and just the sight of one of those little books makes my blood pressure rise. :(

Wow awful and very sad people are that stupid that way (think my way only and you will be ok otherwise you are damned)

Eviejean
11-09-2016, 08:08 AM
Most of the time I don't care one way or the other on religious fliers as long as they are of a positive nature. I may not find them the most appropriate venue for spreading your message, but as long as the message is a upbeat or kind one and the rest of the transaction has been positive, I see no harm. I have no strong feeling about it. However, I will be completely honest, those "Chick Tracts" (the ones that look like little comic books) will instantly make me bristle. When my grandfather died, a preacher sent one to my mother in a sympathy card. Only it wasn't a "sorry you lost your dad" condolence message. It was a "sorry your dad is now burning in hell since he wasn't a member of our church". Even though my grandfather was a regular church goer, it was apparently not the "right" church. THAT was the message this man sent to the woman who had just lost her only parent and the most positive influence in her life. So I can completely understand not wanting any sort of religious pamphlets included, especially if one has had a negative experience previously. It's been over a dozen years since that tract and just the sight of one of those little books makes my blood pressure rise. :(
I'm so sorry that this happened to your mother and really your whole family! :hugg
I don't know what a "chick tract" is but anytime someone use their supposed authority to do something like this is beyond reprehensible!

damaia
11-09-2016, 12:59 PM
I'm non-religious but wouldn't care if someone threw a religious tract or some such in a box with a horse. It would simply be disregarded and thrown away. The only point at which it would be a problem would be if the person either contacted me about it afterward unsolicited, or if the item in question was heavy enough to affect the shipping price significantly (assuming I was paying shipping).

The only unsolicited extra I've ever put in a box was a second horse- I was selling body/shelf models out of my collection and was paying shipping myself just to get rid of them. They were one step up from being PIFs. Someone bought a rather damaged Alabaster FAM from me for something like $15, but couldn't also afford the foal, who was... maybe $10? So I just threw him in anyway for free. It turned out that the package showed up on her birthday and she was thrilled to have the foal too, so that worked out well.

skippyfan
11-09-2016, 02:45 PM
Eh? i dunno. i'm thinking the person would not have been upset by this had it happened 25 years ago...

Or the person would have been just as upset, but more afraid of voicing it. We still have a long way to go, but it is far more acceptable to not be religious now. 10 years ago I doubt I would have admitted to anyone that I'm an atheist, and quite frankly, I still won't say it in person unless I know I'm around like-minded people.

Lora
11-09-2016, 03:33 PM
Or the person would have been just as upset, but more afraid of voicing it. We still have a long way to go, but it is far more acceptable to not be religious now. 10 years ago I doubt I would have admitted to anyone that I'm an atheist, and quite frankly, I still won't say it in person unless I know I'm around like-minded people.

:sad people should not have to be afraid of stating their religion, or saying they are atheist in a free country

Beethovens7th
11-09-2016, 03:52 PM
:sad people should not have to be afraid of stating their religion, or saying they are atheist in a free country
TRUE!

Duke
11-09-2016, 09:52 PM
Don't mean to sound stupid but what is "anti-vaxxing"? I never saw any of that paperwork at Breyerfest.

pipperroo
11-09-2016, 11:00 PM
Penn and TEller (some language) on vaccination. Antivax flyers claimed all vaccinations are poison, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo

Mochi
11-10-2016, 12:09 AM
If a seller were to send a small personal effect, whether it be a prayer card, a bumper sticker for a non-profit, hard candies or what have you, I wouldn't mind in the least. If it were something I disagreed with it would get tossed into the recycling and I'd think nothing more of it.

I think problems only really arise when the extra stops being a small afterthought. Getting a prayer card is a lot different than getting a fistful of religious tracts. Getting a business card or sticker from a non-profit isn't the same as getting brochures soliciting donations.

Maybe I'm coming at this from a different angle, but this is something I go through with my husband's religious family. I'm totally fine with getting prayer cards and the like from his grandfather. He tends to include one with every holiday card he sends - no big deal that's just how he is and I appreciate the thought. But it got weird when my then fiance's mother was sending me pamphlets around the important of chastity before marriage (while I was pregnant, so kind of too little too late regardless). It's a matter of tact.

If a stranger were to pass their favorite biblical passage my way, that's fine. If they pile on literature from whatever their religious affiliation of choice is, that's when I'm going to start getting annoyed very quickly. And yes, it likely would lead to me choosing to no longer do business with then because, at that point, I feel like I've ceased to be a customer and am being viewed more as a potential convert. Ultimately, it would depend on how much I wanted what they were selling but, all things being equal, I'd go elsewhere if I were able.

horsefreak
11-10-2016, 12:25 AM
Inappropriate or not, I think it takes way more energy to make a fuss over it than it does to just throw it away and be done with it. :dunno

:yeahthat

Duke
11-11-2016, 01:24 AM
Thanks for explaining "anti-vaxxing" haven't heard that term before. In fact at Breyerfest I've never seen any literature around the CHIN that wasn't model-related.

allykatd
12-13-2016, 01:35 PM
:sad people should not have to be afraid of stating their religion, or saying they are atheist in a free country

I'm a pagan, and that ancient religion has been so demonized and misrepresented that I rarely mention it. I was told by one relative that if I was a pagan I must worship the devil. WTF? So you can see why I rarely speak about my preferred religion.

Okay, sorry off topic.

FourWindsFarm
12-13-2016, 05:31 PM
I'm a pagan, and that ancient religion has been so demonized and misrepresented that I rarely mention it. I was told by one relative that if I was a pagan I must worship the devil. WTF? So you can see why I rarely speak about my preferred religion.

Okay, sorry off topic.

That is a common belief, at least in our area-- we were actually taught in Sunday School that pagans were devil worshippers.... *sigh* I love some of the old Pagan and Celtic beliefs and it's sad to see how misunderstood paganism is. I actually got into an argument the other day with a lady who swore Christmas trees were "Christian." No, sorry, they're not.

Beethovens7th
12-13-2016, 05:41 PM
That is a common belief, at least in our area-- we were actually taught in Sunday School that pagans were devil worshippers.... *sigh* I love some of the old Pagan and Celtic beliefs and it's sad to see how misunderstood paganism is. I actually got into an argument the other day with a lady who swore Christmas trees were "Christian." No, sorry, they're not.

Christmas trees most assuredly are pagan. :yes

curlinfan
12-13-2016, 06:09 PM
I get tired of hearing "Jesus is the Reason for the Season".
Actually, no. He's not. In an effort to convert pagans the Catholic Church converted one of their sacred holidays, the Winter Solstice, into a Christian holiday. At first the Church banned the Winter Solstice celebrations but people refused to give it up so the Church simply kept several aspects of it and changed the meanings to celebrate the birth of Christ. No one knows the exact date of His birth but speculation usually says late Spring/Early Summer.
At one point the Catholic Church actually banned Christmas since so many of the traditions were tied to paganism and Easter was suppose to be the big Christian holiday since it was Christ's resurrection that proved His Divinity. They saw Christmas overtaking Easter in popularity and tried to stop it. Obviously it didn't work.
The looks I get when I tell others this history are priceless.

allykatd
12-13-2016, 06:26 PM
I get tired of hearing "Jesus is the Reason for the Season".
Actually, no. He's not. In an effort to convert pagans the Catholic Church converted one of their sacred holidays, the Winter Solstice, into a Christian holiday. At first the Church banned the Winter Solstice celebrations but people refused to give it up so the Church simply kept several aspects of it and changed the meanings to celebrate the birth of Christ. No one knows the exact date of His birth but speculation usually says late Spring/Early Summer.
At one point the Catholic Church actually banned Christmas since so many of the traditions were tied to paganism and Easter was suppose to be the big Christian holiday since it was Christ's resurrection that proved His Divinity. They saw Christmas overtaking Easter in popularity and tried to stop it. Obviously it didn't work.
The looks I get when I tell others this history are priceless.

Can I give you a hug? :hugg
Thank you for this.

Beethovens7th
12-13-2016, 06:30 PM
I get tired of hearing "Jesus is the Reason for the Season".
Actually, no. He's not. In an effort to convert pagans the Catholic Church converted one of their sacred holidays, the Winter Solstice, into a Christian holiday. At first the Church banned the Winter Solstice celebrations but people refused to give it up so the Church simply kept several aspects of it and changed the meanings to celebrate the birth of Christ. No one knows the exact date of His birth but speculation usually says late Spring/Early Summer.
At one point the Catholic Church actually banned Christmas since so many of the traditions were tied to paganism and Easter was suppose to be the big Christian holiday since it was Christ's resurrection that proved His Divinity. They saw Christmas overtaking Easter in popularity and tried to stop it. Obviously it didn't work.
The looks I get when I tell others this history are priceless.

:exactly You are precisely right! :yes

Faracat
12-13-2016, 06:44 PM
Easter isn't Pagan free either as Eostre was a Pagan Goddess whose symbol was a hare - Easter bunny anyone?

AMG
12-13-2016, 07:29 PM
Actually, it was the Puritans who banned Christmas because, in part, it was considered too Papist (Catholic).

turningthebarrel
12-13-2016, 07:38 PM
I get tired of hearing "Jesus is the Reason for the Season".
Actually, no. He's not. In an effort to convert pagans the Catholic Church converted one of their sacred holidays, the Winter Solstice, into a Christian holiday. At first the Church banned the Winter Solstice celebrations but people refused to give it up so the Church simply kept several aspects of it and changed the meanings to celebrate the birth of Christ. No one knows the exact date of His birth but speculation usually says late Spring/Early Summer.
At one point the Catholic Church actually banned Christmas since so many of the traditions were tied to paganism and Easter was suppose to be the big Christian holiday since it was Christ's resurrection that proved His Divinity. They saw Christmas overtaking Easter in popularity and tried to stop it. Obviously it didn't work.
The looks I get when I tell others this history are priceless.

:yeahthat

I've seen those looks that you describe...I get a whole other series of looks when I continue to say that I don't celebrate Christmas or Easter. The next question I"m asked is "are you a Christian?" and I say yes. It's amazing how so many people don't realize the origins of such popular holidays.

BuckR.
12-13-2016, 08:05 PM
I get tired of hearing "Jesus is the Reason for the Season".
Actually, no. He's not. In an effort to convert pagans the Catholic Church converted one of their sacred holidays, the Winter Solstice, into a Christian holiday. At first the Church banned the Winter Solstice celebrations but people refused to give it up so the Church simply kept several aspects of it and changed the meanings to celebrate the birth of Christ. No one knows the exact date of His birth but speculation usually says late Spring/Early Summer.
At one point the Catholic Church actually banned Christmas since so many of the traditions were tied to paganism and Easter was suppose to be the big Christian holiday since it was Christ's resurrection that proved His Divinity. They saw Christmas overtaking Easter in popularity and tried to stop it. Obviously it didn't work.
The looks I get when I tell others this history are priceless.

This is 100% correct. It is indeed amazing how many Christians, who study the Bible and their faith all their lives, don't know this. The date, the celebrations, the tree, much of Christmas is indeed a holiday rooted in pagan traditions. Just like Halloween was formerly a Christian holiday, the reverse happened for Christmas and Easter.

Also, it always makes me laugh to see the three wise-men and baby Jesus together in Christmas set ups. I guess it's cute an all that, but Jesus was two when the wise-men found him, not an infant.
I know a lot of Christians celebrate Christmas on January 8th, because that has some biblical/historical foundation. For us, we do celebrate it on the 25th, but we really don't do a lot of gift giving or anything like that. But if I had kids, I would consider doing it on the 8th (think of all the savings on decorations! :haha).



Easter isn't Pagan free either as Eostre was a Pagan Goddess whose symbol was a hare - Easter bunny anyone?

That's interesting! I always wondered where the Easter Bunny came from! :haha

curlinfan
12-13-2016, 08:45 PM
Actually, it was the Puritans who banned Christmas because, in part, it was considered too Papist (Catholic).

I was taught in my Comparative Religion classes in college that the Catholic Church strongly discouraged celebrating Christmas in Europe during part of the early Middle Ages. Some bishops & local priests banned it for their parishes. They saw it as a threat to Easter which was the important Christian holiday. Plus early Christmas celebrations were often rowdy and destructive.

AMG
12-13-2016, 09:14 PM
Yes, they strongly discouraged it, but it was still recognized as a holy day/feast day - celebrating it was fine, it was the manner in which you celebrated they didn't like. Go to Church, light some candles, spend time with your family = Good. Party like a Rock Star = Bad.

By the 17th century, the Church pretty much gave up on trying to curb the celebrations, and Protestants considered Christmas to be a very Catholic thing (showy, indulgent, worldly, not "Biblical").

Most Protestants simply didn't celebrate it, or did so in a very low key manner. Puritans, on the other hand, actually did ban celebrating it, and anti-Christmas sentiments lingered in New England for a long time. Up until the late 19th century many schools and businesses in New England were open on Christmas Day.

(In catechism they made sure we knew, BTW, that Easter was actually the most important celebration, not Christmas.)

Miss Susan
12-13-2016, 09:26 PM
--- oops

FourWindsFarm
12-13-2016, 10:26 PM
Here's a link with a discussion on early Christmas and Christmas history. The author they are interviewing, Dr. Bruce Forbes, was a college professor of mine and a fascinating individual to take world religions classes from. His book, "Christmas : A Candid History" is worth the read, informative, and usually available on Kindle if you don't want to shell out for the dead tree version :-)

http://fivebooks.com/interview/bruce-forbes-on-christmas-history/

A quote from the article: "What I think about the festival is this: Winter is hard for human beings to survive. It’s cold and it’s dark. Even today – with the benefit of electric lights and thermostats – we still have trouble in winter. Imagine what it was like for people in Europe in the Middle Ages to survive. So it’s very understandable that all kinds of culture would develop a mid-winter party to distract them. It would likely be when the days stop getting shorter and start getting longer – in other words late December. And you could guess what it would involve. It would feature lights, like candles and burning logs. It would feature evergreens, because they look alive when everything else seems to have died. You would have people gathering together and feasting.All those things are for many of us our favourite parts of Christmas. Christians came along later, started a party, and put it right in the middle of these pre-existing winter festivals. Every time they moved to a new culture, they encountered some kind of winter festival that probably then became wrapped up in Christmas."

And his book for anyone interested: https://www.amazon.com/Christmas-History-Bruce-David-Forbes/dp/0520258029

Beethovens7th
12-13-2016, 10:37 PM
Easter isn't Pagan free either as Eostre was a Pagan Goddess whose symbol was a hare - Easter bunny anyone?

:yes


:yeahthat

I've seen those looks that you describe...I get a whole other series of looks when I continue to say that I don't celebrate Christmas or Easter. The next question I"m asked is "are you a Christian?" and I say yes. It's amazing how so many people don't realize the origins of such popular holidays.

And :yeahthat :yes

Faracat
12-14-2016, 05:32 AM
A bit of fun from Horrible Histories. :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk3fGduIPVw

unicornwoman
12-14-2016, 08:34 AM
Personally, I don't see it as offensive. I'm not a religious person myself, but I am not bothered if other people are. The way I see it is that the sender has found something (religion) that has made them very happy or has changed their life, and I would feel honored that they would think highly enough of me to attempt to share this happiness they have found. I mean, it's just a piece of paper with words on it. Words that meant something to the sender. It may not be for me, but I definately would not publicly put them down for it. I would thank them for being concerned about my well being (since they may truly believe I am unwell with out their belief system) and then move on. No harm done.

If everyone didn't take things so seriously and see things for exactly what they are (a harmless paper with words on it) then the world would be a better place.

Yeah, it is good to see things from other people's points-of-view. I was sick once. A friend performed a religious ceremony (from a religion I was not a member of) on me. I was a little startled, but I *knew* he did it because 1) he believed and 2) he cared enough about me to do everything he knew to make me better. That is true friendship and I accepted it as such.

unicornwoman
12-14-2016, 09:22 AM
I saw the original post on Facebook. I agree that it was completely inappropriate for the forum it was posted on and I approved when the admins finally removed it.

The issue of whether it is “Good Business Practice” to include religious fliers has been discussed thoroughly on this thread. Thank you to Allykatd for bringing it up so that people can make an informed business and religious decision on that front.

However, here is something very basic in this whole discussion that is not being properly emphasized. Assuming, of course, that both the original parties were US citizens. I don't remember who they were, so I'm just making an assumption here.

In the USA, we have something called the US Constitution. It has certain guarantees of Rights. The very first, the first, amendment was as follows:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

This means that it is not only Legal, but a Constitutionally Protected Right, to practice your religion. And, part of most religions is proselytizing and sharing your views. The Constitution recognizes that part of religious practice by going on to clarify that US Citizens have freedom of speech, freedom of press, and freedom of peaceable assembly.

Nowhere in the Constitution does it say you have the right to not be offended, that you have the right to never hear or see anything you disagree with, or that you have the right to shut other people up when they are exercising their Constitutional Rights.

So, to be painfully blunt, attempts to stop someone's religious activities (generally) is a violation of the US Constitution.

If you don't live in the US, do whatever your country says.

But, if you live in the US & are Patriotic, you simply must believe that people have a right to talk and share their religion and that it is your duty to protect that right, even if it annoys you.

And, yes, I understand that protecting other people's rights means that there will be times that I must protect their rights when I am violently opposed to their viewpoints. That is what it means to be an American.

FourWindsFarm
12-14-2016, 10:56 AM
Yes, your right to share is protected. But what's not protected is fallback from doing so-- if someone does not view receiving religious flyers in their box kindly, and choose not to purchase again or to express their displeasure, that's also their right to their beliefs.

A lot of people, Christian or not, get offended when people express different viewpoints and see everyone who is 'non-Christian' or 'non-practicing Christian' or what-have-you as in the wrong. If someone's right to practice their religion freely is protected, so is someone's right to not do so, and a lot of people miss that little sticking point.

Your right to your religion is protected, but so is the right of others to not want to hear it.

unicornwoman
12-14-2016, 11:25 AM
If someone's right to practice their religion freely is protected, so is someone's right to not do so, and a lot of people miss that little sticking point.

Definitely. It goes both ways.

curlinfan
12-14-2016, 01:24 PM
I tell the kids just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do it. Yes, people are legally entitled to promote their religion but that doesn't necessarily mean they should in a lot of circumstances. There's a time & place for everything. If someone asks about it or you're invited to share that's fine & dandy. But including religious material in a box with merchandise that's non-religious isn't appropriate or always appreciated.

unicornwoman
12-15-2016, 09:55 AM
I tell the kids just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do it. Yes, people are legally entitled to promote their religion but that doesn't necessarily mean they should in a lot of circumstances. There's a time & place for everything. If someone asks about it or you're invited to share that's fine & dandy. But including religious material in a box with merchandise that's non-religious isn't appropriate or always appreciated.

Agreed. That's why I started my post with praising the discussion on the Ramifications of the decision. I believe in informed decisions. :)

That said, I have run into too many people these days that believe that Proselytizing is basically wrong/illegal/must be forcibly stopped. At least, that is what they believe when it is someone else doing the proselytizing. (When it is them doing the sharing, oh, boy, are things different...)

The Founding Fathers of the USA grew up in a culture that had just seen the results of several hundred years of Religious Persecution in England. It didn't matter who was in charge (Catholics; Anglicans; Puritans). Whoever was in charge (despite being persecuted prior to gaining power) felt that Liberty was only something for them. Everyone else had to be suppressed and silenced.

So the belief that Religious Liberty was not Religious Liberty if it was not for everyone was a very progressive idea for the 1700's. Sadly, I'm seeing too many people (of all persuasions and/or political beliefs or lack of them) that don't seem to understand or value this Right the way they should. And, that puts all of us in danger.

redsixwing
12-15-2016, 10:34 AM
Agreed. That's why I started my post with praising the discussion on the Ramifications of the decision. I believe in informed decisions. :)

That said, I have run into too many people these days that believe that Proselytizing is basically wrong/illegal/must be forcibly stopped. At least, that is what they believe when it is someone else doing the proselytizing. (When it is them doing the sharing, oh, boy, are things different...)

The Founding Fathers of the USA grew up in a culture that had just seen the results of several hundred years of Religious Persecution in England. It didn't matter who was in charge (Catholics; Anglicans; Puritans). Whoever was in charge (despite being persecuted prior to gaining power) felt that Liberty was only something for them. Everyone else had to be suppressed and silenced.

So the belief that Religious Liberty was not Religious Liberty if it was not for everyone was a very progressive idea for the 1700's. Sadly, I'm seeing too many people (of all persuasions and/or political beliefs or lack of them) that don't seem to understand or value this Right the way they should. And, that puts all of us in danger.


Yup.

I'm not a member of a majority religion. I'd be very annoyed if someone sent me, say, a wad of Chick Tracts with my hobby purchase; this hobby is where I go to have fun, not to get yelled at about someone else's beliefs.

You're legally allowed to do it; and I'm legally allowed to be annoyed at you, and all that is fine for all the reasons laid out by unicornwoman. Proselytization isn't evil and shouldn't be outlawed, but I do firmly believe it should happen by consent, or it risks being ... counterproductive, shall we say?

Examples:
"Hey, what do you believe about (x?)" ...

"Do you want to hear what I believe?" ...

And of course, in philosophical conversations I'd expect to hear about someone's philosophy. ;)

But the important part here is respectful discussion, and everyone being able to end the conversation.
Arguably, throwing out the flyers counts - but I don't see complaining about someone's behavior as remotely equivalent to legislating it out of existence.

Sparkle Susan
12-16-2016, 12:24 PM
Actually; Easter is a Pagan holiday. Again, the early Christians took it over in an attempt to do away with Paganism. The bible says Jesus was crucified, dead and buried and on the third day he arose from the dead. The bible does not give any dates, so, again, we don't know when it happened. If it was know, wouldn't his resurrection be celebrated on that specific date? Wonder why Easter is never the same day from year to year? It was originally a lunar holiday tied in with the Spring Equinox, so it was celebrated on the first full moon after the Spring Equinox. Later it got moved to the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Spring Equinox, when it became a church going occasion. What does the name Easter mean? It comes from the Goddess Eatara ( several other spellings exist, also ) who is the Godess of Spring time, of resurrection, of new beginnings. Her colors are pastel, and the rabbit and eggs are her symbols; symbols of fertility.
Sorry; off topic, but just had to add to the conversation.

Sparkle Susan
12-16-2016, 12:28 PM
Goddess name should have been spelled :Eastara, my mistake!

Mary
12-16-2016, 05:56 PM
I get tired of hearing "Jesus is the Reason for the Season".
Actually, no. He's not. In an effort to convert pagans the Catholic Church converted one of their sacred holidays, the Winter Solstice, into a Christian holiday. At first the Church banned the Winter Solstice celebrations but people refused to give it up so the Church simply kept several aspects of it and changed the meanings to celebrate the birth of Christ. No one knows the exact date of His birth but speculation usually says late Spring/Early Summer.
At one point the Catholic Church actually banned Christmas since so many of the traditions were tied to paganism and Easter was suppose to be the big Christian holiday since it was Christ's resurrection that proved His Divinity. They saw Christmas overtaking Easter in popularity and tried to stop it. Obviously it didn't work.
The looks I get when I tell others this history are priceless.

It's hard not to be a bit of a smartass when all the trappings of Christmas become part of some discussion about Christianity. Since 98% of what I personally see going on re Christmas celebrations has nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity. It's funny but discouraging. :lol

So I used to work for a very old and very large company that had the tradition of putting up some low key but impressive decorations between Thanksgiving and Christmas. This was years ago, it was sort of a company habit that no one had yet tried to break.

The most noticeable thing on a daily basis was giant wreaths on the walls by the elevators. These wreaths were very simple, with thick green fake evergreen (that looked real) and a giant red bow at the top and no other ornamentation, and nearly floor to ceiling.

So some of the younger workers did start to question this as we were waiting for elevators.
Them: "I don't think they should put up Christian symbols."
Me: "Oh that's not a Christian symbol. It's a pagan symbol. I've read that the wreath was intended to ward off evil. Warding off evil sounds good to me."
Them: Shocked and speechless. They knew I was active in a Christian church. The information seemed to really confuse a number of people.

Anytime someone remarked "I don't think they should put up a Christian wreath" I'd answer back "You mean a pagan wreath? There are no Christian wreaths, the wreath has nothing to do with the birth of Jesus."

I got into several discussions while waiting for elevators, cheerfully informing anyone who brought it up that most of these decorations, including the cafeteria Christmas tree, where not Christian at all. This did not make people comfortable! Some argued that of course these symbols were Christian, and I asked them to show me where in the Bible there was a Christmas tree or wreath. :lol

When it comes to reading the Bible and going to Bible study, I wonder if some Christians really do read it or if they just accept what they are taught about it. ;)



... What does the name Easter mean? It comes from the Goddess Eatara ( several other spellings exist, also ) who is the Godess of Spring time, of resurrection, of new beginnings. Her colors are pastel, and the rabbit and eggs are her symbols; symbols of fertility.
Sorry; off topic, but just had to add to the conversation.

I have always wondered where on earth the Easter Bunny came from (another character not to be found in the Bible). Thank you for this information! :grin


Back to this thoroughly derailed but most interesting thread ... :grin

Beethovens7th
12-16-2016, 09:32 PM
Nope. Not all of them, Mary. :) i was raised Catholic with a lit and decorated tree every Christmas in every room of the house save the bathroom...Never challenged Christmas trees, wreaths, or mistletoe but after becoming a Bible student, i learned that these symbols were no where found in the Bible...Also learned that Christ was born in the Spring and not on December 25. Hubby was raised without the celebration of Christmas due to these things and the commercial greed of the season. Fine by me since my most dreaded chore (before i was married to him) was taking down and putting away the tree. So i just go stompingberry hog-wild nuts over everyone else' trees, lights, and decorations! In fact, every morning at the hotel breakfast this week i sat next to the lit tree and hubby said the first day of our stay, "Should have known this is where you'd choose to sit!:lol"

redsixwing
12-16-2016, 11:00 PM
Honestly, I'd be surprised if any sort of Christmas celebration was mentioned in the Bible. *s* Timeframes being what they are...

I quite like the look of evergreens and bright ornaments everywhere, and the smell of a fresh wreath is something really special. I'm generally at someone else's house for Christmas, so I admit to geeking out over other people's decorations!

FourWindsFarm
12-17-2016, 12:20 PM
I think one can blend the traditional and Christian holiday ideas together; it doesn't have to be one or the other. My family was Catholic and rather devout, but we still had wreaths, trees, and such and enjoyed the secular, traditional, and religious aspects. I do get the giggles when the nativity display is set up near the alter in my childhood church and includes a backdrop of lovely lighted pine trees and snow, though :-)

My mom explained it to us when we were little and questioned why some people believed in God, some people had Hannukah, some had other celebrations, etc. by saying "God can be different things to different people-- for some he takes a human form, for others, multiple gods, and for some, nature; and I don't think He cares how one celebrates, as long as you remember that the holiday season is about giving, kindness, family, friends, and caring about others. Christmas and the winter holidays are a time of reflecting on the year that is past, and looking forward to the coming year."

I adore greenery... my husband won't let me get a real Christmas tree because he thinks it will burn the house down, so I go hog-wild every year and get all sorts of other greenery to stash around the house so it smells like pine :-) I have pine branches stuck in flower pots, wreaths, sprays cut from my parents' pine trees, etc.

ElreniaGreenleaf
12-17-2016, 12:29 PM
I got into several discussions while waiting for elevators, cheerfully informing anyone who brought it up that most of these decorations, including the cafeteria Christmas tree, where not Christian at all. This did not make people comfortable! Some argued that of course these symbols were Christian, and I asked them to show me where in the Bible there was a Christmas tree or wreath. :lol

Hahaha, love it! XD

Lora
12-17-2016, 02:43 PM
Christmas trees might have originated in paganism but christians have adopted christmas trees in their traditions for a long time know and called it their own. We have christmas tree in churches. And why not ? for it to be a pagan rthing, don't you think that those who put christmas trees in their house should at least be aware of that fact ? Or know a little bit about paganism ? Christans for once don't take things in the bible too literally ...

Ulla Harneit

Eviejean
12-17-2016, 03:52 PM
My mom explained it to us when we were little and questioned why some people believed in God, some people had Hannukah, some had other celebrations, etc. by saying "God can be different things to different people-- for some he takes a human form, for others, multiple gods, and for some, nature; and I don't think He cares how one celebrates, as long as you remember that the holiday season is about giving, kindness, family, friends, and caring about others. Christmas and the winter holidays are a time of reflecting on the year that is past, and looking forward to the coming year."(snip)

:thumbsup I think your mom was one smart lady! :hugg

FourWindsFarm
12-17-2016, 06:30 PM
(snip)

:thumbsup I think your mom was one smart lady! :hugg

She is :-)

Miss Susan
12-17-2016, 09:54 PM
(snip)

:thumbsup I think your mom was one smart lady! :hugg

:agreed I really loved what you wrote that she said. It sums it up for me. :clap

Miss Susan
12-17-2016, 09:58 PM
I think one can blend the traditional and Christian holiday ideas together; it doesn't have to be one or the other. My family was Catholic and rather devout, but we still had wreaths, trees, and such and enjoyed the secular, traditional, and religious aspects. I do get the giggles when the nativity display is set up near the alter in my childhood church and includes a backdrop of lovely lighted pine trees and snow, though :-)

My mom explained it to us when we were little and questioned why some people believed in God, some people had Hannukah, some had other celebrations, etc. by saying "God can be different things to different people-- for some he takes a human form, for others, multiple gods, and for some, nature; and I don't think He cares how one celebrates, as long as you remember that the holiday season is about giving, kindness, family, friends, and caring about others. Christmas and the winter holidays are a time of reflecting on the year that is past, and looking forward to the coming year."

I adore greenery... my husband won't let me get a real Christmas tree because he thinks it will burn the house down, so I go hog-wild every year and get all sorts of other greenery to stash around the house so it smells like pine :-) I have pine branches stuck in flower pots, wreaths, sprays cut from my parents' pine trees, etc.

I should have replied to quote. I LOVE what you wrote. This really sums it up for me. I love your first paragraph and the one for what your mom said. :clap :clap :clap I cannot praise it enough :bow :bow :bow

My mom was Catholic and she used to set up a HR nativity scene I bought her. One year she put little pine trees next to it and my ex teased her about it. :lol

ETA: I would rep you if I could :yes

unicornwoman
12-18-2016, 06:41 PM
Actually; Easter is a Pagan holiday. Again, the early Christians took it over in an attempt to do away with Paganism. The bible says Jesus was crucified, dead and buried and on the third day he arose from the dead. The bible does not give any dates, so, again, we don't know when it happened. If it was know, wouldn't his resurrection be celebrated on that specific date? Wonder why Easter is never the same day from year to year? It was originally a lunar holiday tied in with the Spring Equinox, so it was celebrated on the first full moon after the Spring Equinox. Later it got moved to the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Spring Equinox, when it became a church going occasion. What does the name Easter mean? It comes from the Goddess Eatara ( several other spellings exist, also ) who is the Godess of Spring time, of resurrection, of new beginnings. Her colors are pastel, and the rabbit and eggs are her symbols; symbols of fertility.
Sorry; off topic, but just had to add to the conversation.

Actually, the Bible does date the Crucifixion. It was at Passover. Passover fluctuates as to when it is, based on the Jewish Calendar rules.

Eleda
12-18-2016, 07:02 PM
This is why I love Blab. There aren't many places where religious conversations are so kind and open-hearted. Blabbers rock!

I love everything that's been said. Mary, you are truly an enlightened soul to have your beliefs and yet educate others in a gentle way about the origins of certain traditions. That's not easy for a lot of people to do.

FourWindsFarm - Your mom is awesome! Tell her we all say so. My parents raised me similarly, and I enjoyed learning about lots of different beliefs as I grew up.

I'm going to turn this on its head a bit... Some of you know that I'm Pagan, but my decorations might surprise you. I love a decorated Christmas tree more than anything else this time of year, but I also have a porcelain Nativity Set that I painted myself several years ago. I had always wanted one, and finally got the opportunity to buy a whiteware one and paint it. It evokes feelings of love, hope, and generosity, which apply to all of us.

On a totally unrelated note on this already derailed thread... A friend of mine went to the hospital for a bad stomach ache yesterday, and early this morning delivered a 3# 7oz baby boy! She didn't even know she was pregnant! (She's just a little thing, under 5 feet tall, so the baby isn't as immature as you might expect for that weight.) What an amazing Christmas/Yule surprise! :wow

curlinfan
12-18-2016, 08:49 PM
Tell your friend to contact that TLC show I Didn't Know I Was Pregnant. Also tell her your fellow Blabbers say Congratulations!! A true blessing for her this Christmas.
I would love to see a pic of that Nativity scene. I bet it's lovely.

Eleda
12-19-2016, 10:49 AM
I'll do that! I'd never heard of that show... I can't figure out how someone wouldn't know, but then, to misquote Treebeard: "She IS very little." She doesn't mind the height-based teasing. She got a tattoo on her arm a few years ago that says "Though I be little, I be mighty!" :-)

FourWindsFarm
12-19-2016, 11:46 AM
A good friend of mine is a bigger girl, and she didn't know she was pregnant until about 8 months along... she has IBD and PCOS and thought the baby was bloating, stomach upset, cramping, etc. and she only gained about 10 pounds over the course of her pregnancy and carries her weight around her middle so it wasn't really obvious. When she went home for Christmas, her mom took one look at her and asked her when she was due, then took her to the doctor for a blood test and checkup. She had quite the whirlwind of a month preparing for her daughter, and was very excited since her doctor had told her at one point that with her PCOS, she wouldn't be able to have children.

Sparkle Susan
12-19-2016, 07:41 PM
Eleda; I didn't know your were Pagan!! merry meet. Carry on! And, congrats to the new mom!!

Sparkle Susan
12-20-2016, 02:21 PM
Unicornwoman; But, the bible doesn't give an actual date. It doesn't say, for example that Jesus was crucified on April 15th. and rose from the dead on April 17th. ( Just tossing out random dates here ) so, we really don't know when it was supposed to happen. I am curious, as I know very little about Passover, why it follows the Pagan tradition of celebrating the Goddess Eostara on the first full moon after the Spring Equinox? Is there also no actual date for the Passover, either, so they also took over the Pagan tradition? Not trying to start a fight, just curious.

Lora
12-20-2016, 02:34 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover

Passover depends on the jewish calender, so dependent on what date the 15th of Nisan is in our calender passover and therefore eastern is celebrated.

Ulla Harneit

redsixwing
12-20-2016, 03:01 PM
Movable feasts are neat! Here's a source (http://www.infoplease.com/spot/movablefeasts1.html) talking about the connection between Passover and Easter's dates. (Involves the word "paschal.")

Mary
12-20-2016, 09:31 PM
Unicornwoman; But, the bible doesn't give an actual date. It doesn't say, for example that Jesus was crucified on April 15th. and rose from the dead on April 17th. ( Just tossing out random dates here ) so, we really don't know when it was supposed to happen. I am curious, as I know very little about Passover, why it follows the Pagan tradition of celebrating the Goddess Eostara on the first full moon after the Spring Equinox? Is there also no actual date for the Passover, either, so they also took over the Pagan tradition? Not trying to start a fight, just curious.

Passover has a movable date, but a definite date. You can date any historical Passover. I'm pretty sure that goes back in time far before the time of Jesus. So therefore, by very carefully benchmarking all the events leading up to the crucifixion against Passover, the Bible does most definitely and significantly give a date.:)

The dates of the events of Jesus as they related to the traditional Jewish calendar are of prime theological significance. The Bible writers go above and beyond to pin, timestamp and rigorously attach the Jesus events very firmly to the roots of the Christian movement in Judaism.

Passover was the time the Hebrews fled their generations of slavery in Egypt, led by Moses. Moses brought the law of God down from the mountain to the people, and is considered by many to be the original and prime originator and teacher of Hebrew/Jewish law. Before that the Hebrews were a people of custom, after Moses they were a people of the law of God. Jesus filled that role for what Christians, as the next major re-interpretor and teacher of the law of Moses. There is also the parallel of the passage from one life to another life, from slavery to sin to freedom. Etc. & so on.

I used to go to a church class in theology taught by a very learned professor who said that until you understand the Jewish side of the Bible, you can't understand the Christian side. (He amusingly called it The Left Side of the Bible and The Right Side of the Bible, not about politics but about the way most of his Christian students who didn't know the more esoteric parts of the Bible would attempt to look up Bible references. :lol)

Sparkle Susan
12-22-2016, 11:03 AM
Interesting learning about others religions and beliefs. So, what date does the bible give?

JRT Mom
12-22-2016, 11:13 AM
Most Christians ARE very aware of the origins of the Christmas Tree, wreaths, etc. and we know that they don't truly tie into the "birth of our Savior" part of Christmas., and we know the time of the year isn't correct, either. For example, the Three Wise men from the east did not arrive to see Jesus until nearly 3 years after His birth. It took them awhile to get there. :)

But, just like the rest of society, we like the season, the lights, trees, celebration of goodwill among people, gifting and singing of seasonal songs.

History aside, the "traditional" celebration of the birth of Our Lord evolved thru the years to this time of year. Christmas is celebrated differently in different parts of the world, but most of those celebrations also incorporate celebrate the birth of Jesus into this world. Not all, but most.

Our church had some very in depth studies of the Old Testament and how it relates to the New Testament and it's very interesting to see how both "parts" of the Bible tie together. If we were to only live and be guided by the New Testament, the Old would have been eliminated a long time ago. I agree. You don't have a complete understanding of the Bible if you only read "the right" side of the Book. The Prophecies in Isaiah are inspiring to me.

Merry Christmas, everyone! Enjoy and Celebrate!

Sparkle Susan
12-23-2016, 11:06 AM
We really did get off topic here, but I love that everyone is being kind and respectful. Blessings to all of you, no matter your religion, or lack there of!

FourWindsFarm
12-23-2016, 02:22 PM
One theory/fact (depending on who you talk to) makes sense--change the coming of the 'sun' in the old religions to the coming of the 'son' in the new, and voila! Instant validity for an ancient celebration that now includes a Christian aspect. The mid-winter celebrations in the northern climates were all about celebrating the days getting longer and the promise of a coming springtime and rebirth... it didn't take much to add a Christian aspect to that, thus taking an ancient celebration and making it a new holiday. This is most likely the reason Christmas is celebrated in midwinter and not in the spring, when Jesus was most likely born.