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Danelle
11-17-2005, 12:16 AM
I would love a place here on Blab where people could go to discuss religion and spirituality and how it relates to their day-to-day lives and problems -- ... a place that would feel "safe" without posters having to worry about their beliefs being denigrated, argued, or challenged. Preferably, a place where people would have to get access/approval to get in, much like the Mom's forum?

Personally speaking, I know there are Christians here on Blab, but I don't feel safe, or free, to discuss faith issues with them, or anyone, in an openly public forum.

Is a "safe place" to talk about faith and how it shapes, affects, and supports our daily lives, possible here on Blab?

-- Danelle

Attaway1
11-17-2005, 11:34 AM
I agree that would be nice. Christian bashing is becoming commonplace in our society and I for one wouldn't mind a 'safe haven' for us believers.
Melissa

SeaWatch
11-17-2005, 11:43 AM
Personally, I don't think Model Horse Blab is an appropriate place to discuss Faith, or Religion.... or even Politics, for that matter. :tsktsk
It will only create heated discussions, and perhaps animosity among some folks. These topics are too controversial, and I just don't think we should start up forums of this nature. Plus, we have a lot of youngsters on board, and it might be detrimental to their beliefs, as well. :thumbsdow

I'm sure there are plenty of newsgroups, or Yahoo Groups out there where one can discuss their faith, and religion. I just don't believe that it belongs here. :upset

Just my 2 cents..... :bolt

Mindy

Danelle
11-17-2005, 12:15 PM
Personally, I don't think Model Horse Blab is an appropriate place to discuss Faith, or Religion.... or even Politics, for that matter. It will only create heated discussions, and perhaps animosity among some folks. :tsktsk


Um -- with all due respect, Mindy, there are already a good many "heated discussions" and "animosity" in Blab due to rantings about politics (do you suggest that we ban all political discussions, as well?), and in these discussions, if one is a conservative, or even an independent who doesn't subscribe to the current anti-Bush and anti-Iraq trends,they're likely to get pretty abused if they dare contribute to the discussion. I should know -- I'm a registered Independent who voted for Bush last time around and one Blabber even publicly called me a "moron" for it. Nice. But this is not the point.

These topics are too controversial, and I just don't think we should start up forums of this nature. Plus, we have a lot of youngsters on board, and it might be detrimental to their beliefs, as well. :thumbsdow


I don't think you understand what I'm proposing. I'm asking for a *CLOSED* forum (so that rules out "youngsters who might find it detrimental to their beliefs" -- the only way they'd be "subjected" to what's being discussed, is if they ask to be admitted.) Secondly, I'm proposing something more like a support and discussion group for life issues based on faith (and not necessarily just Christianity, either), not a forum to denigrate or debate any one person's particular belief.

Personally, I can't see how a closed forum should pose a problem to anyone who decides not to be a part of it.

-- Danelle

BettyBarBandit
11-17-2005, 01:08 PM
Unfortunately, I don't think you would be safe from anti-christians, even if you were to have a, "closed," forum. You cannot truly block Blabbers from entry, and, as you know, even though some will know, and understand, what it is about, they will be curious, and want to venture in, anyhow.
I have seen similar events unfold in the WOYM forum, where, though threads were clearly marked, ladies ventured in anyhow, out of curiosity, became upset at what they heard, and, went on the attack.
I don't have a moral objection to your idea; I just think you might be disappointed with the result.

brumby988
11-17-2005, 01:38 PM
I would love a place here on Blab where people could go to discuss religion and spirituality and how it relates to their day-to-day lives and problems -- ... a place that would feel "safe" without posters having to worry about their beliefs being denigrated, argued, or challenged. Preferably, a place where people would have to get access/approval to get in, much like the Mom's forum?

Personally speaking, I know there are Christians here on Blab, but I don't feel safe, or free, to discuss faith issues with them, or anyone, in an openly public forum.

Is a "safe place" to talk about faith and how it shapes, affects, and supports our daily lives, possible here on Blab?

-- Danelle

I think this is a great idea, Danelle. While Michele may be right in that it won't be a perfect solution, I think it's worth a try. At least it would be a MORE sheltered forum then the general forums!

Dragon-Ridge
11-17-2005, 02:05 PM
I think it sounds like a great idea! :)

Snitter
11-17-2005, 02:53 PM
I think it is a great idea as well. We have a moms forum for those of us who wish to talk about our kids.....how wrong it is to have a place to talk about our beliefs? It's not some recruiting place....it would just be a place to feel free to be whom we are and let are beliefs be known there...

seventhdream
11-17-2005, 02:54 PM
a place that would feel "safe" without posters having to worry about their beliefs being denigrated, argued, or challenged. Preferably, a place where people would have to get access/approval to get in, much like the Mom's forum?

The Mom's forum is open to anyone over the age of 18 if they request a password. It was originally open to anyone, and changed to have that restriction after some concern (which I don't recall the specifics of right now)


Personally speaking, I know there are Christians here on Blab, but I don't feel safe, or free, to discuss faith issues with them, or anyone, in an openly public forum.

Who decides who gets access to the forum? What is the criteria for admission? Is it faith and religion? Or Christians only? Should there be a related forum for atheists and agnostics? More for non-christianity based faiths? When does it end? What would be next? Separate forums for democrats and republicans? Cultural forums for whites, blacks, and hispanics? I agree that a specific religious forum has no place on a model horse board.


Personally, I can't see how a closed forum should pose a problem to anyone who decides not to be a part of it.

But unless it is an exclusive forum, anyone could be a part of it - there are plenty of childless members who participate in the Moms forum. I agree with what BBB said in her post.

seventhdream
11-17-2005, 02:55 PM
The above post is MY PERSONAL OPINION ONLY. I did post this in the management forum for discussion.

Kristina
11-17-2005, 02:59 PM
If you're going to do that, why not have a forum for most/all religions? Or maybe even a Wicca forum. Why is Christianity the only religion that needs a sheltered forum?

I am just curious, please do not take offense to any of these questions. :peace

Edit: Nevermind, seventhdream pretty much asked the same questions.

JulieB
11-17-2005, 03:00 PM
I like the idea as well, Danelle. Faith can be a touchy subject, but there have been a fair share of non-religious, non-policitcal, non-hobby related discussions get heated on Blab. And, if it's a closed forum, the only way anyone would be subjected to it, is if they ASK to be admitted and read or participate in the discussions.

JulieB
11-17-2005, 03:02 PM
If you're going to do that, why not have a forum for most/all religions? Or maybe even a Wicca forum. Why is Christianity the only religion that needs a sheltered forum?

I am just curious, please do not take offense to any of these questions. :peace

Edit: Nevermind, seventhdream pretty much asked the same questions.

If you read one of Danelle's posts clearly you will see that she said, "Secondly, I'm proposing something more like a support and discussion group for life issues based on faith (and not necessarily just Christianity, either), not a forum to denigrate or debate any one person's particular belief."

*edit* oops, just read the last line of your post.

seventhdream
11-17-2005, 03:03 PM
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ChristianMHcollectors/

An alternative... I really don't feel that a christian forum belongs on an otherwise public board.

JulieB
11-17-2005, 03:07 PM
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ChristianMHcollectors/

An alternative... I really don't feel that a christian forum belongs on an otherwise public board.


Already a member, and I don't believe Danelle was suggesting that this be a specific forum for Christians only.

seventhdream
11-17-2005, 03:18 PM
discussion group for life issues based on faith (and not necessarily just Christianity, either), not a forum to denigrate or debate any one person's particular belief.

That same statement could justify opening it up to atheists and agnostics too. Yet, they too, are beliefs held by many - would they be welcomed into this forum to discuss faith? I enjoy luvahorse's posts when religion has come up in the past - she's been able to eloquently state her beliefs in a way that has helped me understand them. I'm open to learning about ALL religions. But as an agnostic who leans towards being an atheist, would I and others with similar beliefs fit the criteria to join this hypotetical forum?

seventhdream
11-17-2005, 03:21 PM
Already a member, and I don't believe Danelle was suggesting that this be a specific forum for Christians only.

I was going by her statement in her first post
Personally speaking, I know there are Christians here on Blab, but I don't feel safe, or free, to discuss faith issues with them, or anyone, in an openly public forum.

The quote you are referring to was a couple of posts later.
I'm proposing something more like a support and discussion group for life issues based on faith (and not necessarily just Christianity, either), not a forum to denigrate or debate any one person's particular belief.

seventhdream
11-17-2005, 03:25 PM
:peace :peace :peace :peace :peace

The Toilet Paper of Peace Flag.. I *really* am not trying to slam anyone or their ideas here, just stating my own personal opinions... I sincerely hope no one participating in this thread takes my comments personally. I also hope everyone realizes these posts do not speak for the Blab mangagement team as a whole. :grouphug

JulieB
11-17-2005, 03:33 PM
I was going by her statement in her first post

The quote you are referring to was a couple of posts later.

Honestly, I took the statement in her first post as using the Christians she knows of as an example, since that is what she is familiar with.

JulieB
11-17-2005, 03:35 PM
:peace :peace :peace :peace :peace

The Toilet Paper of Peace Flag.. I *really* am not trying to slam anyone or their ideas here, just stating my own personal opinions... I sincerely hope no one participating in this thread takes my comments personally. I also hope everyone realizes these posts do not speak for the Blab mangagement team as a whole. :grouphug

Hey, no problem. That's what the suggestion box is for, right? Toss it out there, get some feedback, see if it flies. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. :bloom:

seventhdream
11-17-2005, 03:43 PM
Hey, no problem. That's what the suggestion box is for, right? Toss it out there, get some feedback, see if it flies. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. :bloom:

And from what I've read in this thread, it seems to be a 50/50 split so far...

Give us a couple days for everyone in the management forum to :5fam discuss it. We'll see what happens.

MarthaBechtel
11-17-2005, 04:49 PM
*shrugs* I wouldn't mind if such a forum was created, but that's also because I'd probably never use it. So for those of us in my corner, it makes no nevremind... unless someone uses the 'members only' status to start bashing those of use who can't see it. *has seen this happen on other boards* Not to say that anyone would do that! Just that it sort of breeds eletism. :dunno

Does this mean I can ask for a Bush-friendly forum so I won't get flamed as much? ^_~ :lol

Danelle
11-17-2005, 05:07 PM
If you're going to do that, why not have a forum for most/all religions? Or maybe even a Wicca forum. Why is Christianity the only religion that needs a sheltered forum?


Kristina, I hope you don't change your avatar just because Halloween's over, ha! I just sit there watching that thing over and over and get to laughing. I guess I'm sick!

Anyhow, for those who think I'm proposing a "Christian" forum: Please go back and re-read what I initially proposed, as I was proposing one on faith, and not just Christianity. :) A rather "ecumenical" sort of gathering place, 'tis all.

-- Danelle

Ponypainter
11-17-2005, 05:09 PM
While I think that it is a good idea in theory, I don't think that realistically it will end the "persecution" that some folks feel in discussions where religion comes up. I respect Danelle very much, but do get a gist of "Christian's Corner" rather than an open faith board for plusses and minuses. To be fair, ALL religions and points of view would be admitted, even if it is PW protected and 18+, and I think that some of the issues that are making people feel uncomfortable will crop up (if not more animatedly) in a faith-based area. If it's just for the positive aspects and sharing of faith, and not for discussion of the how and why aspects, I'm open to it. I see it as opening a can of worms I'm not sure Blab wants to open though... :dunno :peace

Tracy

BearsnBugs
11-17-2005, 05:17 PM
Um -- with all due respect, Mindy, there are already a good many "heated discussions" and "animosity" in Blab due to rantings about politics (do you suggest that we ban all political discussions, as well?), and in these discussions, if one is a conservative, or even an independent who doesn't subscribe to the current anti-Bush and anti-Iraq trends,they're likely to get pretty abused if they dare contribute to the discussion. I should know -- I'm a registered Independent who voted for Bush last time around and one Blabber even publicly called me a "moron" for it. Nice. But this is not the point.


I don't think you understand what I'm proposing. I'm asking for a *CLOSED* forum (so that rules out "youngsters who might find it detrimental to their beliefs" -- the only way they'd be "subjected" to what's being discussed, is if they ask to be admitted.) Secondly, I'm proposing something more like a support and discussion group for life issues based on faith (and not necessarily just Christianity, either), not a forum to denigrate or debate any one person's particular belief.

Personally, I can't see how a closed forum should pose a problem to anyone who decides not to be a part of it.

-- Danelle

Two points--no one is banning discussions on religion. We've had plenty. Some heated, some not so. Why would we ban political discussion? I don't propose a political forum, either.

Second--who do you decide is allowed in to a closed forum? How do you propose to not have people debate a particular belief. I have no problem debating belief--I think it's a good thing. I'm a Christian and a good debate isn't going to sway my belief.

Personally, I think it's a not a good idea. I would rather see others discussing that might not go into a "faith" forum--in part, because I think it's a good thing to see how other people think. Creates a better understanding--I don't have to believe what you believe, but I understand where you're coming from sort of mentality.

I agree that there have to be other forums that would be more appropriate elsewhere on the net.

Tina

Danelle
11-17-2005, 05:18 PM
That same statement could justify opening it up to atheists and agnostics too. Yet, they too, are beliefs held by many - would they be welcomed into this forum to discuss faith? I enjoy luvahorse's posts when religion has come up in the past - she's been able to eloquently state her beliefs in a way that has helped me understand them. I'm open to learning about ALL religions. But as an agnostic who leans towards being an atheist, would I and others with similar beliefs fit the criteria to join this hypotetical forum?

I guess my question would be, "Why would you even want to join such a forum?" There are plenty of things offered to us all in this world, and most folks I know "take what they like and leave the rest." I'm not saying that anyone should be excluded from a forum like this, but that I can't see how someone who leaned toward atheism would get a whole lot of comfort or hope out of faith-based sharing.

Again, I am not proposing something that's exclusive to others, no matter what their beliefs are. I'm just thinking of how so many people here take their joys and sorrows to the "group" here on Blab at large, and derive much support from communing with others ... the topics in "what's on your mind" and the "mom's forum" for, instance, often serve to help bring people together when one person is having a challenge or wanting to share a joy. I, personally, would feel uncomfortable bringing my personal religious beliefs into those forums, even though my personal religious beliefs are very much a part of me, and how I (try to) conduct my life. To bring them out into a wide-open forum, where there are those who might be hostile, disdaining, or disrespectful of those beliefs, does not feel comfortable to me.

I'm sure there are numerous Blabbers who derive much comfort, joy, solace, and hope from their faith, no matter what that faith is, but don't feel as though they can bring that "part" of themselves out onto a public forum for fear that their beliefs will be challenged, or for fear that they will have to "explain" their beliefs. All I'm proposing is a place where people can talk freely about their lives, their faith, and the way their faith impacts their lives, without feeling as though they have to explain their faith, justify it, or even hide it.

But if it's such a bad idea, I'm sorry I brought it up.

-- Danelle :)

seventhdream
11-17-2005, 06:32 PM
I guess my question would be, "Why would you even want to join such a forum?"

I answered this question in the portion of my post that you quoted, I enjoy learning about other folks beliefs and practices. Why do people with no kids participate in the Mom's forum? Why do people who don't own real horses participate in the Real Equine forum.


but that I can't see how someone who leaned toward atheism would get a whole lot of comfort or hope out of faith-based sharing.

Perhaps people might read it because they are interested in what people have to say, not because they are looking for comfort or hope.


All I'm proposing is a place where people can talk freely about their lives, their faith, and the way their faith impacts their lives

If people aren't comfortable talking about their faith where anyone could see, then how is a password protected forum where anyone would be welcome be any different? Perhaps those conversations would be better held via PM or email.

DraytonWoods
11-17-2005, 06:54 PM
The bottom line is, creating a new forum isn't going to change or control a person's reaction toward religion or faith issues. I like discussing faith issues (all faiths) but to think it's going to be a "safe place" with no conflict strikes me as unrealistic.

Snitter
11-17-2005, 06:55 PM
If people aren't comfortable talking about their faith where anyone could see, then how is a password protected forum where anyone would be welcome be any different? Perhaps those conversations would be better held via PM or email.

I guess I would try to explain it as.....there is a moms forum because obviously there was a need for it...and moms could not post some stuff due to those who really don't care to hear about us and our offspring.

Pretty much there are some who are offended by posts about kids... There are also those out there who don't care to hear about a persons faith...no matter what it is...but like kids...it can pertain to model horses...really.

I don't see where politics plays any role with model horses....but then again, I avoid that part of life and the conversation of it with a 100 ft pole. :haha

Just my tiny .02

seventhdream
11-17-2005, 07:10 PM
there is a moms forum because obviously there was a need for it.

I don't remember there being an obvious need for it.. for that matter, I can't even find any discussion about how it came to be. Had there been discussion about it, my point would've been the same - there are already 2 OT forums, and if people are uncomfortable posting certain things on a public forum, they should reconsider posting them on a public forum.

The Mom's forum was originally open to all. There was concern from some members about the kids having access to some things discussed there, which is when the 18+ password got put into place.

Jeannine
11-17-2005, 07:53 PM
I don't have a strong opinion either way but I agree with Sunnybank that faith is typically a hot topic (like politics), so a separate forum may not be very safe either.
Heck, from my personal experience, a lot of the religions that fall under the Christian umbrella can't even get along because they think they're better than the other <sigh>


The bottom line is, creating a new forum isn't going to change or control a person's reaction toward religion or faith issues. I like discussing faith issues (all faiths) but to think it's going to be a "safe place" with no conflict strikes me as unrealistic.

Kristi Hale
11-17-2005, 09:48 PM
I guess I would try to explain it as.....there is a moms forum because obviously there was a need for it...and moms could not post some stuff due to those who really don't care to hear about us and our offspring.
But they don't have to read it if they aren't interested or worry about getting offended.

Roseridge
11-17-2005, 11:11 PM
I don't remember there being an obvious need for it.. for that matter, I can't even find any discussion about how it came to be.

Re: Moms

Heather started it up herself, as I remember. I was one of the first posters there. I like having it and I am glad that it is open to moms and non-moms!

Hellen
11-17-2005, 11:16 PM
Who decides who gets access to the forum? What is the criteria for admission? Is it faith and religion? Or Christians only? Should there be a related forum for atheists and agnostics? More for non-christianity based faiths? When does it end? What would be next? Separate forums for democrats and republicans? Cultural forums for whites, blacks, and hispanics? I agree that a specific religious forum has no place on a model horse board.



I want a "Married overweight chicks with obsessive horsey thoughts" forum




:uh



I think, if people want to discuss faiths, why not post a new thread in the Off Topic section? :grouphug :)

Roseridge
11-17-2005, 11:17 PM
I have to say here that I enjoy talking about my faith out in the open and have never felt threatened to do so in the least. If a faith forum were opened, I would post there (I am a very talkative gal!), but I would not limit my faith discussion to such a forum since I would find that very hard to do-- Wow, an actual Episcopalian expressing themselves in public about issues of faith? whoever woulda thunk it ;)

Roseridge
11-17-2005, 11:58 PM
The bottom line is, creating a new forum isn't going to change or control a person's reaction toward religion or faith issues. I like discussing faith issues (all faiths) but to think it's going to be a "safe place" with no conflict strikes me as unrealistic.

:agreed

Take two branches of North American Protestant Christianity and you have enough disagreement...

:tempted

Danelle
11-18-2005, 12:26 AM
All right, all right. :) I'm sorry I brought it up. Mods, please consider my idea officially annulled. :)

-- Danelle

seventhdream
11-18-2005, 12:52 AM
Re: Moms

Heather started it up herself, as I remember. I was one of the first posters there. I like having it and I am glad that it is open to moms and non-moms!

Thanks for refreshing my memory. Before the Mom's forum existed, people just posted things about their kids in the OT forum, which I didn't mind at all. I glance in there once in a while, and it seems like it's morphed into quite a bit more.

Hippo
11-18-2005, 11:54 AM
I'm sorry, I don't like this idea at all. Maybe it's my skewed view of the world, but I think a separate religion forum - however open and including - would lead to a lot of debates with atheists/agnostics ending with the phrase "well, if you're not religious, just what are you doing here?". And with my love of arguing I'm afraid my inner troll would have a field day... I do occasionally engage people I really, really disagree with just for fun, and basically annoy the hell out of them. I really don't want that to happen here.
Feel free to express your faith, but don't make it a clique!

Danelle
11-18-2005, 12:01 PM
As I said, please forget I even brought it up.

-- Danelle

wobbler_kitty
11-18-2005, 04:30 PM
I don't think you need to feel that way, Danelle. Lots of Blabbers bring suggestions of all sorts here. We wouldn't have some of the forums that we have if it weren't for these suggestions. :hugg


I personally don't care for the idea because I'm just not a religious person. And I'm not so sure if I'm comfortable with the Blab community having that type of forum. It just seems sort of, I dunno, segragating? Maybe that's not the right word I want but I feel like "Where does it stop?" Do we then have political forums? Gamers forums? Sports forums?

I guess that those are slightly "lesser" examples though, because they don't determine how or help you live your life. And although I can "see" how one may have religion in their life, I myself don't necessarily understand (or want to know) why.

To put it simply, I just don't get the whole want or need for the 'religion thing'. But, you and others have it and wanting a place for it is understandable.

Le_Mule_Chic
11-18-2005, 04:55 PM
I thought it was a good idea (note past tense) but I also agree in the fact that it would have been controversial.
Christians have been singled out a lot in some threads. If I don't like them, I just don't read them. I might poke into that yahoo group one, though.

Anime Horse Freak
11-19-2005, 01:51 PM
I think it might work. It may be worth a try. There have been many instances that I've backspaced over religious comments because I didn't want to offend anyone. It would be cool, actually, to get to know others of my own faith. I know there are other pagans here.^_^ As far as "going somewhere else". Why? Isn't that part of having forums? We all came here for a common love of horses, but that isn't all we are interested in. I enjoy the OT discussions sometimes more than the model-related ones.^_^

But, then again, I, too, know that religion can rile up people if they disagree or feel their faith is being challenged. I had someone tell me on another forum that Wicca was a false religion made up by some crazy guy in the 60's. Bleh. I decided not to reply any more in that thread because he and others were asking me to openly discuss aspects of magick that were personal to me and that I did not wish to share. (I'm talking specific spells, etc. that I DO not share readily.)

Anyway, its a toss up, I guess. Personally, I'd enjoy it...if everyone got along and welcomed all religions. I can be pretty blunt in my beliefs, but I'm also respectful and curb my true thoughts if I feel them to be hurtful. (My boyfriend, on the other hand doesn't care and will speak his mind, but that's another story! lol)

Wanda Eversberg
11-20-2005, 08:13 PM
If it hasn't gone under yet, there is a yahoo group called "model horse Christians". It is a very nice group where "never is heard a discouraging word" ;) You'd be surprised how many well known, and respected hobbyists are on it. The one thing that really disturbs me is that people can't live and let live. So what if someone's a Christian, and they admit it? Does that give the athiests, pagans, and agnostics the right to bash the daylights out of them? I don't go aroud bashing them for thier beliefs, and I sure as heck don't like it when they bash me for mine. Got the living daylights bashed out of me when I brought up my feelings about foul language (the "F" word in particular) in this forum awhile back. I don't mind a person giving a legitimate reason why they don't agree with me, but when they start tying in a lesser mentality with being a Christian that's where I draw the line! You don't have to be an under-educated hick to believe in God. There were so many people on this board that I really respected before they jumped down my throat about my beliefs. I really thought they were more "open-minded", and "bigger" than that. Well, I'll tell ya what..I got my eyes opened on that one. I know who my friends are on this board, and I appreciate their uplifting comments. It's not nice to hurt people, no matter if you believe the same as they do or not. Well I guess I'll go put on my Nomex suit and wait for the flames!

Wanda Eversberg
11-20-2005, 08:30 PM
Oh...and I forgot to mention in my previous post I think that if the forum gets put in everybody should have access to it, not just us who are Christians. I don't mind sharing a forum with others who's faith is different from mine. I'm not going to try to convert anyone, but by the same token if they ask me to help them learn about Christianity I'll not turn them away either. I don't mind seeing other faiths post, and who knows, I might just learn something enlightening :D.

Le_Mule_Chic
11-20-2005, 10:26 PM
The one thing that really disturbs me is that people can't live and let live. So what if someone's a Christian, and they admit it? Does that give the athiests, pagans, and agnostics the right to bash the daylights out of them? I don't go aroud bashing them for thier beliefs, and I sure as heck don't like it when they bash me for mine. Got the living daylights bashed out of me when I brought up my feelings about foul language (the "F" word in particular) in this forum awhile back. I don't mind a person giving a legitimate reason why they don't agree with me, but when they start tying in a lesser mentality with being a Christian that's where I draw the line! You don't have to be an under-educated hick to believe in God. There were so many people on this board that I really respected before they jumped down my throat about my beliefs. I really thought they were more "open-minded", and "bigger" than that. Well, I'll tell ya what..I got my eyes opened on that one. I know who my friends are on this board, and I appreciate their uplifting comments. It's not nice to hurt people, no matter if you believe the same as they do or not. Well I guess I'll go put on my Nomex suit and wait for the flames!



Unfortunately.. I have to.....









:agreed

Keren
11-21-2005, 08:01 AM
If it hasn't gone under yet, there is a yahoo group called "model horse Christians". It is a very nice group where "never is heard a discouraging word" ;)

Hm. A Sunday school teacher hobbyist friend didn't find it like that at all...

Personally, I think there is NO PLACE for a religious discussion section in a hobby forum like this. If you want one, go and start it somewhere else, and invite the like-minded people you know from all your interest groups to join.

I'm a European: we have spent the last 500+ years dealing with the crap that comes as a side-order with "religion" (meaning the sort of "believers' who don't follow the core teachings of their founders - of whatever persuasion - but use the "fact" that THEY are the only "righteous ones" as an excuse to dominate other groups). In this country, being the "wrong sort of Christian" can still get you beaten up, knifed or shot. My SO has family who were burned out of their home and business for being "the wrong sort of Christians". And then there's the little matter of the several million people who were executed in the last century for not being Christian at all... :angry

A hobby forum is *no place* for religion: let's stay friends here, no matter what sort of Christian - or other faith - we happen to be.

Keren :soapbox

Kristi Hale
11-21-2005, 10:32 AM
I'm a European: we have spent the last 500+ years dealing with the crap that comes as a side-order with "religion" (meaning the sort of "believers' who don't follow the core teachings of their founders - of whatever persuasion - but use the "fact" that THEY are the only "righteous ones" as an excuse to dominate other groups).
I've wondered lately why it is that in Europe, even though I think Christianity is the predominant religion there, no one seems to run for public office on a campaign of how pious they are, whereas in the USA this happens all the time. I guess this explains it, huh?

Morgen
11-21-2005, 11:38 AM
hmmm.. just poking in to offer a possible rationale, not a blab mod one but a personal one, as to why we have political discussions out in the open but shy away from spiritual ones as much...

Politics affect everyone (even often globally). Spirituality is very personal... no?

Just my personal 2 on that question - as a reason why many feel it's "ok" (albeit often foolish but otherwise kinda 'fair game') in general to discuss politics (at work, with the family), despite disagreements... voting choices can lead to real changes in our lives.

But disagreeing with or worse, trying to alter, someone's spiritual beliefs is getting rather... uh... well... personal I guess! lol!

Keren
11-21-2005, 05:24 PM
I've wondered lately why it is that in Europe, even though I think Christianity is the predominant religion there, no one seems to run for public office on a campaign of how pious they are, whereas in the USA this happens all the time. I guess this explains it, huh?

Absolutely. We know how ugly it gets at first hand.

Like Morgen says, religion is a personal issue. As the saying goes, your beliefs are like your sex life - you should only share them with your fellow participants! :D

Keren

Kristi Hale
11-21-2005, 05:26 PM
Oh man, is that EVER true! HA! LOL

LesliKathman
11-21-2005, 07:10 PM
I've wondered lately why it is that in Europe, even though I think Christianity is the predominant religion there, no one seems to run for public office on a campaign of how pious they are, whereas in the USA this happens all the time. I guess this explains it, huh?

I remember that Robin Williams once said, in reference to the Clinton impeachment, that we needed to remember that many people in America descended from people so uptight even the English threw them out. :grin

Lesli

PS - I should qualify my statement about uptight Englishmen with the admission that the women in my own family bear a shocking resemblance to Professor McGonagall in the Harry Potter movies.

DraytonWoods
11-22-2005, 10:15 PM
I've wondered lately why it is that in Europe, even though I think Christianity is the predominant religion there, no one seems to run for public office on a campaign of how pious they are, whereas in the USA this happens all the time. I guess this explains it, huh?

Actually... I was following the Polish elections and the man who won the presidency were part of a party that sounded very much like the current US right wing madness going on-- return to Christian (Catholic) values! Stay in Iraq! Poland for the Poles! Okay, not so much the last one http://www.modelhorseblab.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif but, you know, similar. (incidentally, the guy who won the Presidency and his brother head up the party. Draw your own parallels there. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4371068.stm) Poland has a system where they have both a President and a Prime Minister-- I think the other twin ran for PM but conceded when his bro won Prez.. bizarro.

Now, that was dorky. http://www.modelhorseblab.com/forums/images/smilies/lol.gif But I had to point it out, we aren't the only ones being so icky.

kidwitch
11-24-2005, 07:45 PM
Any more closed forums I'm completely against. I want to talk about religion. I want to talk about politics. Why shouldn't I? You guys aren't going to break me for god sakes! I'm offended that people are saying that it should be closed because it could be "detrimental" to my beliefs. I can think for myself, thanks much. I can choose my own religious beliefs and I should be allowed to talk about them too. Ugh. Now you all just ruined my evening. I have religious opinions. Just because I'm under 18 I don't get to voice them?

>:[
HARUMPH.

edit; I don't want to be the 'special' kid either that gets to be in. I want it open for EVERYONE. Everyone has religious opinions. Kids aren't the ones that will turn it into a massacre, its the thoughtless adults who run their mouths.

nanwagner
11-24-2005, 10:57 PM
if one is a conservative, or even an independent who doesn't subscribe to the current anti-Bush and anti-Iraq trends,they're likely to get pretty abused if they dare contribute to the discussion. I should know -- I'm a registered Independent who voted for Bush last time around and one Blabber even publicly called me a "moron" for it. Nice.

You realize, of course, that when one has no basis in fact or other pertinent information to aid in making their point in a discussion, that person will usually resort to name-calling ;)

Anyway, I agree with Mindy - there should be plenty of safe havens for Christian discussion on Yahoo groups...of course, you'll run into baiters and trolls, just like you will anywhere else.

Nan
p.s. organized religion is just like big government ;)

Keren
11-25-2005, 06:12 PM
Nan
p.s. organized religion is just like big government ;)

Organised religion IS big government. That's the whole point of it. Both want to control the behavior of their subject population. Governments interfere with the material lives of their subjects, organised relision with their spiritual and psychological lives. Consequently, they don't like people who refuse to be coerced, like environmental whistleblowers or Quakers, for example.

Keren

brumby988
11-25-2005, 06:22 PM
Wow, big government = organized religion, eh? The name-calling has already started....

I imagine it's comments like these that prompted Danelle to ask for a Religion Forum. It's not very nice to call someone's religion the equivalent of a spiritual tyrant.

pzp
11-25-2005, 11:00 PM
Wow, big government = organized religion, eh? The name-calling has already started....

I imagine it's comments like these that prompted Danelle to ask for a Religion Forum. It's not very nice to call someone's religion the equivalent of a spiritual tyrant.

Uhhhh... not trying to make trouble here, but it sure seems like anyone who offers an opinion different from XYZ's gets slammed for "XYZ-bashing" or name-calling. I say we drop the whole subject and stick to models. I'd hate to see Blab devolve into another Haynet.

brumby988
11-25-2005, 11:06 PM
Uhhhh... not trying to make trouble here, but it sure seems like anyone who offers an opinion different from XYZ's gets slammed for "XYZ-bashing" or name-calling. I say we drop the whole subject and stick to models. I'd hate to see Blab devolve into another Haynet.

Perhaps you haven't read the first post, which was asking for a place where religion and faith could be discussed without being bashed. It has nothing to do with expressing a different opinion, it has to do with respecting someone else's faith while expressing your opinion. It is, in my opinion, disrespectful and ironic for someone to say that organized religion is the equivalent of a tyrranical government IN THE TONE THAT WAS USED, when the thread was started to ask for a safe haven for discussion of faith! Keren pretty much labeled people who participate in organized religion as people who are "willing to be coerced." That's kinda personal and insulting, in my opinion.

Have you read through this whole thread? Have you read the many past threads where religion and faith were discussed?

Those who know me know that I am the last person to label a differing opinion "bashing" or "name-calling." Please look at the whole picture before criticizing :peace

pzp
11-25-2005, 11:29 PM
Perhaps you haven't read the first post, which was asking for a place where religion and faith could be discussed without being bashed. It has nothing to do with expressing a different opinion, it has to do with respecting someone else's faith while expressing your opinion. It is, in my opinion, disrespectful and ironic for someone to say that organized religion is the equivalent of a tyrranical government IN THE TONE THAT WAS USED, when the thread was started to ask for a safe haven for discussion of faith! Keren pretty much labeled people who participate in organized religion as people who are "willing to be coerced." That's kinda personal and insulting, in my opinion.

Have you read through this whole thread? Have you read the many past threads where religion and faith were discussed?

Those who know me know that I am the last person to label a differing opinion "bashing" or "name-calling." Please look at the whole picture before criticizing :peace

I've been following the entire thread with interest. Keren expressed her own opinion, for which she was accused of name-calling. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but that's how it came across, at least to me. How can you have a discussion without having different opinions expressed?

Again, I say we drop the whole subject and stick to models. As someone noted earlier (see, I HAVE read the thread) there are other forums specific to certain opinions, callings, beliefs, what-have-you.

brumby988
11-25-2005, 11:39 PM
I've been following the entire thread with interest. Keren expressed her own opinion, for which she was accused of name-calling. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but that's how it came across, at least to me. How can you have a discussion without having different opinions expressed?

Again, I say we drop the whole subject and stick to models. As someone noted earlier (see, I HAVE read the thread) there are other forums specific to certain opinions, callings, beliefs, what-have-you.

I DID mean it like that: that Keren was insinuating that people who participate in organized religion are easily coerced and don't have a mind of their own. To ME anyway, that's not a nice thing to say. I've often enjoyed Keren's posts, but some of her comments--including this one--are either just short of blatently rude or crossing the line, IMO.

I have no problem with differing opinions: it's what makes the world go round! I DO have a problem with people not respecting others, which was how Keren's post came across. I merely pointed it out; obviously your opinion is that I am mistaken in labeling her remarks as name-calling. That's okay. :peace

Like you and others have said, religion is just too hot a topic for the Blab. But lack of respect for others is something that can carry over into other arenas besides religion. I'm just asking for a little decency and moderation :)

pipermaru
11-26-2005, 12:36 AM
In my opinion, what many people want is a place where they can discuss subjects that are important to them with like-minded people... and with no possibility of disagreement. This is not limited to religion. I've seen vicious online battles over everything from politics to wedding planning.

After nearly 15 years online, I've learned the only way to achieve this is to create a single-subject private list with tightly controlled membership and strict moderation to prevent dissenting views.

This is not intended as disrespect towards anyone-- it's my observation and my opinion.

And yes, I have followed the thread from the beginning and read every single post in it.

Kristi Hale
11-26-2005, 12:45 AM
After nearly 15 years online, I've learned the only way to achieve this is to create a single-subject private list with tightly controlled membership and strict moderation to prevent dissenting views.
Haynet?

pipermaru
11-26-2005, 12:46 AM
Haynet?

:grin

kidwitch
11-26-2005, 08:44 AM
Good Lord.

ITS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN PEOPLE.
You guys have already shown you're too immature to not only discuss the prospect of a faith based forum on Blab, but have one.

nanwagner
11-26-2005, 11:10 AM
Wow, big government = organized religion, eh? The name-calling has already started....

I imagine it's comments like these that prompted Danelle to ask for a Religion Forum. It's not very nice to call someone's religion the equivalent of a spiritual tyrant.

How the HECK is that name-calling?? LOLOL!!!

And you've given us a prime example of intolerance at it's best...I express my opinion without using any 'flaming' terms such as 'zealot', 'fanatic', 'criminal', 'opressor'...nooooo, I use a regular term that you can speak in front of Gramma and the pope - and you instantly slap a label on me as a 'name caller'.

Well heck, if I mentioned your first name, technically I'd guess I'd be a name-caller too!

If you want/demand tolerance for your religion, you'd sure as heck had better learn how to be tolerant yourself. Better go back and read your teachings of the Prophet Jesus. Isn't the whole point of christianity to be more christ-like? LOLOL! Hey, WWJD??

Nan

nanwagner
11-26-2005, 11:15 AM
It is, in my opinion, disrespectful and ironic for someone to say that organized religion is the equivalent of a tyrranical government IN THE TONE THAT WAS USED,

TONE?
HAHAHAHAHAH!!!
How the heck did you infer tone from that post? Especially when the FIRST part of it was in AGREEMENT with you (more or less)
(Unless of course, you're sooo defensive already that you are LOOKING for problems where none exist....)*snif*

ahhh thanks for the chortle...

Nan

Danelle
11-26-2005, 11:54 AM
I have to agree with what Cynthia said, and also, Evelyn. It's obvious that this idea of mine wouldn't have worked. With all due respect, these last posts smack of a mocking nastiness ... If the very idea of a forum which -- as Cynthia correctly pointed out, I proposed as a safe place where people OF ALL FAITHS could take their life's problems and joys and discuss them from a faith-standpoint without being mocked or criticized -- creates such bitterness and anger, God only knows what the real thing would have incited. You were right, Evelyn. People aren't ready for it.

-- Danelle

brumby988
11-26-2005, 12:39 PM
How the HECK is that name-calling?? LOLOL!!!

And you've given us a prime example of intolerance at it's best...I express my opinion without using any 'flaming' terms such as 'zealot', 'fanatic', 'criminal', 'opressor'...nooooo, I use a regular term that you can speak in front of Gramma and the pope - and you instantly slap a label on me as a 'name caller'.

Well heck, if I mentioned your first name, technically I'd guess I'd be a name-caller too!

If you want/demand tolerance for your religion, you'd sure as heck had better learn how to be tolerant yourself. Better go back and read your teachings of the Prophet Jesus. Isn't the whole point of christianity to be more christ-like? LOLOL! Hey, WWJD??

Nan

Nan, I apologize if I came across as offensive and intolerant. I was referring to Keren's comment, not yours, and I should have made that very clear. My slip lead to a misunderstanding--one of the most dangerous things in a heated debate!

FYI--though nobody probably really cares--I feel that I am one of the most tolerant people out there, religion or not. You assumed I am Christian...in fact I am, but used to be an atheist! I am one of those rare Christians that doesn't believe in hell, and thinks that all religions are beautiful. In Bible Belt Oklahoma, I was constantly criticised and people always tried to convert me to their denomination. No matter that I'm already Catholic! :lol

brumby988
11-26-2005, 12:45 PM
TONE?
HAHAHAHAHAH!!!
How the heck did you infer tone from that post? Especially when the FIRST part of it was in AGREEMENT with you (more or less)
(Unless of course, you're sooo defensive already that you are LOOKING for problems where none exist....)*snif*

ahhh thanks for the chortle...

Nan

Again, I was referring to Keren's post.

This post is bordering nasty, IMO: you are calling me defensive, and saying I'm looking for problems where none exist....ie that I am an idiot. "Thanks for the chortle"? It doesn't take a college English class to know that your statement is steeped in ridicule and superiority.

You might consider practicing what you preach: tolerance for different ideas. In the hypothetical case that I WAS referring to your post, you could have expressed your disagreement in a courteous, decent manner. Instead, you lash out, all on the offensive.

Like Danelle and Evelyn have pointed out, iwe aren't ready for these disucssions. It only takes a few rabblerousers to stir things up. In evolutionary game theory: it's the hawks among the doves.

pipermaru
11-26-2005, 01:32 PM
I'm sitting here wondering if these comments include my post:


"You guys have already shown you're too immature..."

"...these last posts smack of a mocking nastiness..."
Whether these comments include me or not, I wonder why there is such a double standard for rudeness and name-calling.

Alternatively, I could choose to interpret these comments as opinions rather than personal attacks, and choose not to take offense.

I could also repeat this from my earlier post:


"This is not intended as disrespect towards anyone-- it's my observation and my opinion."
...but I suspect it won't work this time either.

pipermaru
11-26-2005, 01:39 PM
EDIT: And I should also remember that it's not always possible to know what's happening in someone's real life that might be affecting the tone of their posts.

BettyBarBandit
11-26-2005, 01:49 PM
I'm sitting here wondering if these comments include my post:



"You guys have already shown you're too immature..."


"...these last posts smack of a mocking nastiness..."
Whether these comments include me or not, I wonder why there is such a double standard for rudeness and name-calling.


Alternatively, I could choose to interpret these comments as opinions rather than personal attacks, and choose not to take offense.

I could also repeat this from my earlier post:



"This is not intended as disrespect towards anyone-- it's my observation and my opinion."...but I suspect it won't work this time either.I have to agree here--it seems that, where religion and politics are concerned, there will always be a degree of dissent, and, I have, on Blab, seen this occur on every side of both issues. I don't know that, unless you have a closed forum where, as Melissa mentioned in an earlier post, no disagreement, or differing opinion of any kind is allowed, there is a safe place to discuss faith, or politics.

As an agnostic, I can assure you that I have been subjected to my share of name calling, even as a young child. If I am not being called names, I am being told that I will go to hell. This is just part of the world that I live in, and, I have grown to accept it.
I have seen many posts, here on Blab, where someone mentions ones faith, in passing, such as, "you are in our prayers," or, something equally innocuous, and no one has commented at all in a negative way.

pipermaru
11-26-2005, 01:57 PM
I have to agree here--it seems that, where religion and politics are concerned, there will always be a degree of dissent, and, I have, on Blab, seen this occur on every side of both issues. I don't know that, unless you have a closed forum where, as Melissa mentioned in an earlier post, no disagreement, or differing opinion of any kind is allowed, there is a safe place to discuss faith, or politics.

As an agnostic, I can assure you that I have been subjected to my share of name calling, even as a young child. If I am not being called names, I am being told that I will go to hell. This is just part of the world that I live in, and, I have grown to accept it.
I have seen many posts, here on Blab, where someone mentions ones faith, in passing, such as, "you are in our prayers," or, something equally innocuous, and no one has commented at all in a negative way.

Thanks for understanding, BBB.

I know that people I've offended don't believe it, but I really do work hard not to bring my biases to the table when I post. My childhood was like yours, and even now my brother won't have much to do with me because I'm not "saved", but I am not a Christianity-basher. But I believe that freedom of religion and freedom of expression should include all people, not just Christians.

EDIT: I switched the pic in my signature-- which was a harmless X-Files fan site back in the day-- because I discovered there's now a cult in England called Church of X. So much for being offensive.

Danelle
11-26-2005, 02:00 PM
I'm sitting here wondering if these comments include my post:
<snip>

"...these last posts smack of a mocking nastiness..."

No, Melissa, they didn't. Unlike two or three other recent posts, I found nothing in yours that made me think, "ouch." (BTW, I love your Optime. :) )

-- Danelle

pipermaru
11-26-2005, 02:01 PM
No, Melissa, they didn't. Unlike two or three others, I found nothing in your post that made me think, "ouch."

-- Danelle

Thank you, Danelle.

Anime Horse Freak
11-26-2005, 02:37 PM
I have seen many posts, here on Blab, where someone mentions ones faith, in passing, such as, "you are in our prayers," or, something equally innocuous, and no one has commented at all in a negative way.
And I would hope that those of all religions on here would know how much we truly do care for each other despite our religious differences. Whether we are saying a prayer or lighting a candle or just thinking about someone, it truly shows when one of us is having problems. :grouphug

I refrain from saying too much as far as religions go, because I don't want to anger people with my opinions. My boyfriend, on the other hand, lacks such restraints.:twisted Good thing he's not on here! ^_^lol

brumby988
11-26-2005, 02:54 PM
And the problem with online conversations is that all we have to go on are the words themselves, and their connotations and underlying innuendos! It makes misunderstanding all the more easy, unfortunately.

Melissa, your posts have always been great to read, and never offensive to me. You are always careful to make clear that something is your opinion, and that you respect someone else's opinion, whether or not it is the same or different. I've always enjoyed your posts, and you remind me that moderation is always a good policy :)

pzp
11-26-2005, 02:57 PM
And the problem with online conversations is that all we have to go on are the words themselves, and their connotations and underlying innuendos! It makes misunderstanding all the more easy, unfortunately.


May I add - Try to insert <body language> in emails. It often helps convey your tone and may prevent misunderstandings.

brumby988
11-26-2005, 02:58 PM
I told myself today that I could only Blab a little, and that was it! Anyway, this is my last post for this thread. Danelle, it was a great idea in theory, but I guess our board just isn't the place for a forum like you suggested. But thank you for sharing the idea with us anyway :) To everyone else, if I have offended, I truly did not mean to rub anyone's fur the wrong way. :peace

pipermaru
11-26-2005, 02:59 PM
And the problem with online conversations is that all we have to go on are the words themselves, and their connotations and underlying innuendos! It makes misunderstanding all the more easy, unfortunately.

Melissa, your posts have always been great to read, and never offensive to me. You are always careful to make clear that something is your opinion, and that you respect someone else's opinion, whether or not it is the same or different. I've always enjoyed your posts, and you remind me that moderation is always a good policy :)

Thanks, Cynthia.

Keren
11-28-2005, 08:04 AM
Not been reading this over the weekend, unable to get to the computer...

HOWEVER...

I think the fact that a fellow Blabber could misinterpret a post referring to the behaviour of the hierarchies of organised religions (of ALL persuasions) and based on demonstrable historical fact to into a personal attack on *her* is the most cogent demonstration possible that this is NOT an appropriate place for the discussion of personal beliefs.

Like I said before, let's keep something that is so personal and private, *private* and keep Blab united by our enthusiasm for model horses, not divided by belief.

After all, if we want to have feuds with people, there's always "the other list" ;)

Keren