Why are customs still being cast in resin?

[mamakaroti]

I know this topic has been discussed before, and it seems that the overwhelming sentiment is that if the original mold of a custom is easily identifiable that it is not "right" to cast it in resin and call it your own. There are clearly a lot of resins out there that are customs, but I was under the impression that this practice has faded away due to it being frowned upon in the hobby.

When viewing a link in another post on Blab, I noticed a custom of a very recent Breyer release that is being cast, so I guess I was wrong in thinking that people weren't doing this anymore.

After playing around with sculpting some myself, I realize how much work, sweat, and tears go into an artist's original sculpture. I can't tell you how many hours I put into just doing measurements and scaling to get the armature correct before I even started sculpting. I usually try to stay out of the controversies in this hobby, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it. For someone to make a few changes to someone else's sculpture (even if it's an OF plastic) and then call it their own sculpture really gets my goat. I understand that a lot of work also goes into customizing, but unless that OF horse is completely unrecognizable, I don't think someone can call it their own.

I guess there must still be a market for it, though, or it wouldn't be happening? :dunno

[nighthenge]

People are still buying them.

[bahannas]

I agree that its a terrible thing to do. An artist's work should be THEIR'S AND THEIR'S ONLY! That's what makes the model so special! Some people make me cringe... :upset

[Lora]

There are alot of people who do not mind or won't recognize if the Resin is based on a CM Breyer or Stone. I won't allways recognize if that is a CM Breyer or Stone also if I don't read something about that on Blab. And I hate to allways be suspicious , so if I would still buy Resins I would just buy what I like as long I don't see the CM Breyer/Stone in that Resin. It seams quit easy to just create a CM and cast it as Resin to make some money and Breyer / Stone do not seam to care so peple will go on doing that. I wish that they would at least state that the Resin is a CM Breyer/Stone , so everyone can decide to buy it or not. But I guess that this would lessen their profit... I don't know if it would help if Breyer/Stone would state on their webside, their boxes and everywhere that it's OK to CM their horses but not to cast the CM horses as Resins.But may be they really don't care...

[pegasus4240]

Also not everybody can recognize the plastic body underneath the custom work. So some people don't realize it's not an original work.

And then some people just don't give a darn, they like the horse so they buy it.

I think it comes down to the artist and their integrity to only cast 100% original pieces. To get several different opinions and make sure that plastic armature cannot be seen, but not everybody agrees or cares so this will most likely continue. :embarras:

[Gwaihira]

adjusting an Of model and then claiming it to be your own work not acceptable for me. At least give credit to the original sculptor.

[Jennifer]

Personally, I'm not a fan of this practice but I understand why people do it. Just look at some of the other forums on this board. Someone will post pictures of a cool custom and someone else will ask and encourage them to cast it. If there's demand, supply will follow.

I do have some nice older resins that were cast from customs. I can see the original model in them if I try, but they don't bother me at all--I guess because that was the norm at the time of their creation. Now, however, I prefer customs to stay one of a kind.

[cheseri]

My feeling is that it's okay to cast a custom of any level (simple to drastic, resin or plastic) if, AND ONLY IF, it meets BOTH of the following rules:

#1: It is always listed as a cast custom

#2: The sculpter(s) and/or mold owner (in case of Breyer/Stone) are aware and approve of the casting.

Some artists cast their customs because they can get the most financial return for their work that way. This isn't at all wrong, just an unfortunate necessity sometimes.

Although I don't have a moral objection, I would love it if less people did practise this. I have comissioned drastic customs in the past because I wanted something totally different, not something 3 or 4 other people will be plunking on the table too. But there are some very beautiful resins that came from customs. I'm sorry I don't know any off the top of my head but I know it has been mentioned when there were other debates about this.

So... I guess the guidelines of whether or not you should comes down to one question for each artist to ask themself: WHY do I want to cast it, and is it a valid reason, or do I just want to cast because I can?

[Mithren]

Honestly, I don't care if it was a custom, *IF* I can't tell what it was originally. If the original has been torqued and covered with epoxy (like the way Sarah Mink can do it), it's cool with me. Now if it's just an ISH with a new m/t, that's totally different. ;)

[anniemare]

Some resins are cast from customs partially for preservation of the piece. This is part of the motivation for the L'Inspecteur resin. Although we have never denied that he is a custom. Heck, he has been showing in the custom division and winning for a decade.

A great number of people have expressed interest in buying the original piece. This is a way for them to get a piece of him, so to speak, for about the same price as the custom originally sold for.

It does not bother me much. Now if it is taking another artists work and casting it without their consent, that is a whole 'nuther ball of wax! That is wrong no matter what the model is created from (CM plastic, OS or 4 vienna sausaged toothpicked to a bananna).

[MichellePlatt]

I have watched some wonderful customs develop and improve through the critiques on forums such as Blab and have witnessed the clamouring for a piece of them. I understand the temptation that the financial gain could be with all of the many hours put in to make the transformations. And,... it still aggrevates me tremendously each time I hear the announcement that the sculpture is going to casting.
Drastic or not, without stating who the original sculptor was and giving credit to that sculptor with each model sold is unacceptable. That is, with the assumption that permission was granted by the artist that created the original! Even if the the body was used for nothing more than an armature. It is my belief that a sculpture is NOT an original if someone else's work is underneath all of those changes.
This has been a very touchy subject and has created some very heated discussion and accusations in the past, but as long as others keep the status quo and blindly turn their eyes, and others ignorantly purchase the castings without realizing it is either a custom casting or that it is wrong, the practice will continue. :bluerant
Thank you mamakaroti for bringing it to light again.

[whitetail ridge]

Unfortunately like mentioned earlier as long as people keep buying them and encouraging it ... it will continue. I pretty much concur with what's been said-I do not like it if I can recognize it and it not a "vintage"resin. I've never sculpted nor made a cm I would even consider becoming a resin but I can see how hard it seems and what talent it takes to be a sculptor and why sculptors don't like this practice. I don't buy resins but if i could I would steer away from any I knew were for sure cm's. There does seem to be a real surge in this practice right now. Not sure if some of it is due to newer hobbyists or a fad that comes and goes. A truly drastic and beautiful cm is a work of art and artform in and of itself. Kind of defeats the purpose to me in a cm when you cast it and make multiples. JMO.

[whitetail ridge]

I know we see this with OFP turned into resins but are there many cases of ARs being resculpted by someone else and cast as original? I can think of a few that are very similar but I don't know if the original AR was used as an armature of they are just similar sculptures.

[jasper978]

If the original has been torqued and covered with epoxy (like the way Sarah Mink can do it). ;)


There was a lovely SMB piece at Tri State Live today, my Afleet Alex got the grand honor of posing next to it today, (only because I was watching the set up and people question what it used to be since it was so drastic), so I provided a comparison piece :) to show what the model originated as sculpture wise. You had to look VERY hard to find anything that resembled the original LG mold.

[MorBarbs]

If the original has been torqued and covered with epoxy (like the way Sarah Mink can do it), it's cool with me. You mean like Orinocco was made of Breyer's Touch of Class? I agree, it IS almost impossible to tell and it's far more than a "drastic CM" but I still personally value 100% made-from-scratch sculptures with selfmade wire armatures higher. Yes, that might mean more work because (I am not saying that melting and bending a Breyer body to use as an armature does not require more or less skilled work..) you have to take all the measurements yourself, have to see that everything in the skeleton is in proportion but I just feel that if you want to *cast and sell* a sculpture, the piece should be 100% your own original work. JMHO. :)

And needless to say I absolutely can not stand resins which clearly resemble their plastic CM workbodies and I will not intentionally (sometimes you might *not* be able to tell its a re-cast/re-worked CM) support an artist marketing such a piece. If someone is so deperate for money then that person should either sell the work either as drastic CM and not cast it or work on her/his techniques so she/he does no longer need to use other people´s work underneath to be able to produce an appealing sculpture.

[Prairie Dream]

Also not everybody can recognize the plastic body underneath the custom work. So some people don't realize it's not an original work.

This happened to me. I bought a resin that I thought was original, there was no explanation of the piece's origin (at least I don't remember it) and I'm not that knowledgeable about all the Breyer and Stone molds out there. I found out later that it was customized and cast from the custom. I wouldn't have bought it if I had known.

But that puts me in a quandary. I paid money for this resin, and if I paint it and want to sell it, what do I do? Just sit on it and never sell it? That doesn't seem fair to me, either. I know for sure that if I do sell this piece I'll make sure and point out that it was cast from a custom so the buyer will know what they're getting, but it makes *me* feel kind of guilty or sleazy for even wanting to sell it.

[Ponypainter]

They are being cast because those folks don't give a fig, as do those who buy them knowing it's a CM. :( IMHO it's a form of theft, and it sickens/saddens me that the practice continues.

Maybe someone will customize and cast one of these to prove a point? I can almost bet on it that the "first customizer" would feel cheated and used. :buttkick

Start on a CM project knowing that the piece will be OOAK, and if you wish to cast your efforts, start out with wires and clay so what you're selling is 100% your effort! Even though Breyer and Stone are big companies, that doesn't make it okay. An individual's hands created the original the plastics are molded from, and we should display the respect these folks are due.

Tracy

[ramiethepeep]

I know we see this with OFP turned into resins but are there many cases of ARs being resculpted by someone else and cast as original? I can think of a few that are very similar but I don't know if the original AR was used as an armature of they are just similar sculptures.

An 'unchanged ear' on a drastically CM'd-then-cast-and-sold-Breyer (you know, something that gave away its original identity) would be frowned upon, I imagine; but it would appear that if the CM was an adept one then the horse would still sell.

Now, say that someone released a spunky frolicking-hopping-bucksnort-fart Arabian resin of 'completely unique' pose, and a close inspection of the left eye revealed that the horse was a super-drastic CM of Nahar or Pepe' or a Keeling horse or a LerMond... so forth and so on. I think that the CM-artist would catch approximately seventeen distinct kinds of unwashed hell for doing it, and it's not likely that anyone would pip up in their favour to say 'but it's only the eye.. I mean dang, you really have to look to see that..'

My point?

Dunno! :) We all have to start somewhere... I certainly didn't know that even the Great and inscrutable Lynn Fraley got her start doing CMs! I think she did.. tons of them on.. umm, what was it.. modelhorsegallery.com? And furthermore, if you look closely, you'll find Pepe' and Chet amongst those CMs. Aha.. ;) Heck No: I don't think, and am NOT trying to imply that Chet and Pepe are cast customs, but I do think she 'worked them out' as CMs first.. a rough sketch, as it were? That, I think, would be my choice: if you think that your CM is so bloody awesome that it truly must live as an edition, then measure it and sculpt it. Try to copy it exactly with bent wires and plastalina.. if you're good enough to copy it so closely that people would still ask if it's a cast custom, then you're good enough to sculpt yer own!

Just my $1.22 or so.. ;D

[MaggieBennett]

:dunno I've never actually completed a resculpt of a plastic that I can remember (I've done a few repaints but not many!). So it's totally possible to just jump into sculpting and skip the whole CMing thing if that's what you want to do. Keep those lovely CMs unique! I find it harder to CM than to start from scratch anyhow, but maybe that's just me.

[TheLoneStoner]

So, I hear y'all but if you do not know (and I would not have a clue) how are you supposed to tell? (assuming the seller does not mention that it is a cast CM from another piece.)

I don't *think* I have bought a resin in this catagory but I really don't know and I have just assumed they are original works as all have been bought from the artist - but maybe not? So if I did buy one and try to
sell it now - I'm a bad guy? :randommil (That is hypothetical as I have a black hole collection - LOL)

[brumby988]

So, I hear y'all but if you do not know (and I would not have a clue) how are you supposed to tell? (assuming the seller does not mention that it is a cast CM from another piece.)

I don't *think* I have bought a resin in this catagory but I really don't know and I have just assumed they are original works as all have been bought from the artist - but maybe not? So if I did buy one and try to
sell it now - I'm a bad guy? :randommil (That is hypothetical as I have a black hole collection - LOL)

The way I saw it was this: I wasn't about to take a financial hit of half a grand. I bought an Ostentatious unknowingly, and when I found out I was really upset. I couldn't enjoy the horse anymore, and eventually sold it to a lovely lady who COULD enjoy it. Maybe that makes me the bad guy, but I wasn't willing to sacrifice that money for upholding a "gray zone" question anyway (said question being the morality of selling a cast CM, not whether or not CMs should be cast! and yes, I know the Ostie story isn't as straightforward as casting a plain CM).

[brumby988]

I think it would be in poor form to cast a CM for general distribution (as opposed to preserving a falling-apart CM) if any part is easily distinguishable, or if the original mold is easily distinguishable by non-OF experts (like myself!).

I do know of at least one CM from a Breyer that is easily recognizable (and the artist freely acknowledges that) but the artist insists on casting soon, and many people are already saying that they will be buying. So that probably is a huge impetus.

[MorBarbs]

But that puts me in a quandary. I paid money for this resin, and if I paint it and want to sell it, what do I do? Just sit on it and never sell it? That doesn't seem fair to me, either. I know for sure that if I do sell this piece I'll make sure and point out that it was cast from a custom so the buyer will know what they're getting, but it makes *me* feel kind of guilty or sleazy for even wanting to sell it. Your intention was not to buy a CM-cast resin in the first place, you didn't *know* about the item's true background at the time of your purchase. So don't feel guilty.
When you really only bought it because you wanted to paint and re-sell, and you said you are going to add to the description that it was a re-cast custom, well, do so and let the customers decide. It's not your fault people resin-cast CMs and while buying such pieces does in some way support these people's practises, you did so without intention. Plus, if you paint and sell it now, the money goes to you and supports you, not the person who did the questionable casting. You could learn from this and do a background check for future resin purchases :wink
I understand your situation because I once bought a SM which I thought was simply a Breyer plastic CM (auction description was very short and not realy info-loaded and I assumed it was just a CM with some resculpting!). Turned out it was a resin! A resin made from a CM Breyer SM...oh well. I *am* keeping this piece - I wouldn't have bought it had I know it was a cast resin instead of simply a CM *but*now I paid for it and I still like the model itself, what I do not like is the person's decision to have the CM cast as resin.

[Artistikchick]

:dunno I've never actually completed a resculpt of a plastic that I can remember (I've done a few repaints but not many!). So it's totally possible to just jump into sculpting and skip the whole CMing thing if that's what you want to do. Keep those lovely CMs unique! I find it harder to CM than to start from scratch anyhow, but maybe that's just me.

It's not just you. I murdered a little bit saddlebred and a PS Arab years ago. . .I wanted to see just what CMing was all about. Both projects were abandoned within a couple of hours, too much to be done to them to make something really unique *and* up to the standards I would want. In some ways, another person's work is a great shortcut to build on, but in a much larger way, it's a hinderance to work around. Unless a CMer is very skilled with their sculpting ability, they will be trapped within the boundary of that other person's sculpture. If someone is *really* skilled with their sculpting, they won't need that original body to work with anyhow. It's a fine way to practice sculpting. Some people feel overwhelmed trying to do the whole horse at once. I understand that. It's a great way to work on sculpting hooves, or manes and tails, or ears, or whatever. But casting? Hmmm, if it's still got loads of the original body showing through, it isn't a finished piece. It may *look* finished, but the new parts, the CM parts are just pieces. It would be like framing and hanging a paint by number painting where you had only painted in the green portions. . .the whole picture is there and visible, but the part that makes it finished, personalized and "yours" (as much as a paint by number painting can be) is such a small part.
I won't say that it's easier to do a sculpture from scratch. For some people it *is* easier, for others it's impossible. Not everyone is meant to be a sculptor. . .conversly, I was not meant to be a mathematician. I don't begrudge anyone wanting to experience sculpting in whatever way they can if it brings them some satisfaction and happiness! But if a person really does have a talent for sculpting, and they don't take the initiative to put the effort in and work on their craft before casting, they are hurting themselves more than anything. I'm sure it's a big step to make the decision to put down the plastic body and pick up that clay, or epoxy, or wax. A person has to have the confidence to accept that, while the pieces you produce on that journey might not be as good as you would like them to be, they are *your* work, and you always have control over your work!
Kathi:wink

[Artistikchick]

After some thought here. . .I had to add this. I don't really think that the blame of this trend really should lie with the consumers. As Stoney said, how is anyone really supposed to know? You would like to assume that any resin you are looking at is an original work. It's the artists who hold the ultimate responsibility. True, if the consumers wouldn't buy these pieces, they *might* not be produced. . .but how can anyone really police this? It's an independant decision made by each customer to purchase whatever resins they purchase. i don't think anyone should feel bad about owning, or even enjoying one of these cast CMs. I know *I'm* not that familiar with all of the commercially available plastic models out there. If it weren't for the in-progress photos shown on boards like these with the tell tale original paint and sliced up body parts evident, I wouldn't be any the wiser about many of the pieces out there.

It's a matter of artistic integrity. An artist should have enough pride in their craft to make sure that what they present for sale with their name on it, is actually their work. I used to believe that the customers should know better. . .but that isn't fair. The artists should know better. Fortunately, *most* of them do. With increased support from other artists through groups like RESS or even through boards like Blab here, I think that *eventually* this will work itself out. It's expensive to produce a resin, it's even more expensive to produce a resin that doesn't sell well. By encouraging the artists to seek opinions about their work and praise the efforts of artists embarking on 100% original sculptures, I think this phase in the hobby will continue to evolve and resolve.
Kathi

[tinnggg]

Mmmm... I find it amusing that just a few years ago, nobody thought anything of it. Then a hobby icon (who ironically has cast a few customs themselves) condemns the practice and half the hobby is up in arms against it. Live and let live, I say. No; it's not necessarily fair to those who sculpt from scratch but OTOH, how many of those have put out some horrific nightmares that shouldn't have been seen outside their studio? :shrug:

Better to buy/cast/sculpt what YOU like and quit worrying about what Susie Creamcheese is doing. (now if I can just remember to take that advice myself :D)

[mamakaroti]

Just because a wrong-doing has precedent and has never been enforced does not make it right, IMO. I think it is a matter of ethics.

[ravensgate]

Ya know, I would say that I don't care as long as you can't tell what it was CM'd from. However, I bought a resin once on the secondary market and had no clue it was a CM'd Huck until it was brought to my attention on Blab. I have to say I was dissappointed in my purchase at that point. Especially when there was what I would consider a flaw in the shoulder of Huck that was still blatantly there in this resin.

On the other hand, people are fussing about those resins that they know are CM'd horses. I believe Deb Buckler said there are many many more out there that are CMs that noone knows about. If I have to start nitpicking over every resin to see if an eye or an ear looks the same as something else, well, it will take all the enjoyment out of them.

I understand the ethics and such that come into question but if I saw something I absolutely fell in love with that was a CM with no resemblance to the original body, then I would have to say, I still might buy it. Say what you will, but if one truly loves a piece, there's not much you can do to stop them from buying it. The unfortunate aspect of that, is if there are buyers then people will continue to do it. There's still a lot of blood, sweat, and tears that goes into a drastic CM as well as an OS. I doubt there are many that would invest that amount of effort if money wasn't to be had somewhere down the road. Of course, I know there are artists that do drastic CMs and don't cast them, but hopefully you get the jest of what I am saying:)

[mariannas]

What about resins that are drastic customs that you CAN'T really tell what they were from the original? I have a copy of Sue Thompsons' Tuk resin (her Akhal Teke mare in a really animated trot). I have heard that she's a custom from the PS TB. Now...I love this mare. I hardly ever show her because she's HEAVY, but there's something about this horse that really pulls at me. I'm not going to stop showing her, because I LOVE her...does that make me a bad person? :dunno I hope not.

[tinnggg]

According to the Resin Police, if it has even so much as an essence of plastic, it's going to melt your face right off your skull, and make your iPod only play jethro Tull :D

I have *2* Yuckys. I have 2 because I haven't stumbled across a killer deal on a third. That delightful studmuffin is a CM adios. I've sold off several that were original works because I found myself not liking them once I got them in my hot little hands. Everything from funky cannons, to utter lack of personality. The later graced what is considered by many to be a very coveted and fabulous sculpture. I thought it boring.

Yeah; there've been several barely customized pieces that have been cast when they probably shouldn't have, but who am I to stand judgement?

Let he/she who is without err fault cast the first khemosausage.

[brumby988]

Dude, I LOVE Jethro Tull!! :lol

[DraytonWoods]

According to the Resin Police, if it has even so much as an essence of plastic, it's going to melt your face right off your skull, and make your iPod only play jethro Tull :D

I have *2* Yuckys. I have 2 because I haven't stumbled across a killer deal on a third. That delightful studmuffin is a CM adios. I've sold off several that were original works because I found myself not liking them once I got them in my hot little hands. Everything from funky cannons, to utter lack of personality. The later graced what is considered by many to be a very coveted and fabulous sculpture. I thought it boring.

Yeah; there've been several barely customized pieces that have been cast when they probably shouldn't have, but who am I to stand judgement?

Let he/she who is without err fault cast the first khemosausage.

:yeahthat

:rocker

[cheseri]

In some ways, another person's work is a great shortcut to build on, but in a much larger way, it's a hinderance to work around. Unless a CMer is very skilled with their sculpting ability, they will be trapped within the boundary of that other person's sculpture. If someone is *really* skilled with their sculpting, they won't need that original body to work with anyhow. It's a fine way to practice sculpting. Some people feel overwhelmed trying to do the whole horse at once. I understand that. It's a great way to work on sculpting hooves, or manes and tails, or ears, or whatever. But casting? Hmmm, if it's still got loads of the original body showing through, it isn't a finished piece. It may *look* finished, but the new parts, the CM parts are just pieces. It would be like framing and hanging a paint by number painting where you had only painted in the green portions. . .the whole picture is there and visible, but the part that makes it finished, personalized and "yours" (as much as a paint by number painting can be) is such a small part.


I'm sorry if it's not meant in this manner, but what I took from this is that unless you sculpted it yourself, it's not a real or complete artistic piece. If that is true, why do many shows including NAN have a whole division just for customs? I don't think creating a custom means you have any less artistic ability, or that you are trying to cheat, or even that it's unethical to cast it. There are several people who enjoy making customs rather than or in addition to original sculptures and need to sell multiples in order to afford to live. I feel it's only unethical if they LIE about it. As long as they are up front about it beng a cast custom, and the original sculptor has approved them casting it, then I would have no problem purchasing it and would feel no guilt. I feel sorry for all of you who are putting aside many beautiful and worthy pieces just because you feel so strongly against something that even the person who was supposedly "wronged" doesn't have a problem with. :dunno

[MaggieBennett]

If not only the original sculptor but *the current owner of the rights to the piece* has approved it then I don't have a problem with people casting CMs. How many people have approached Breyer or Stone for permission to cast a CM? And how many times has permission been granted? Ever?

It is important to realize that the owner of the mold must give their permission. In most if not all cases for plastics, this will NOT be the sculptor.

[hi_d_hi]

Yeah; there've been several barely customized pieces that have been cast when they probably shouldn't have, but who am I to stand judgement?

Let he/she who is without err fault cast the first khemosausage.

:agreed I've come back a little in this subject. I'm certainly not going to condemn those who make customs into resin, drastic or not. Or those who buy them. It would be nice if artists asked the artist that made the model in the first place if they could do a CM and make it into resin, it would be nice if they would make it so drastic that no one could tell, it would also be nice if they didn't make it drastic, no one would touch it. On the other hand it would be nice if we had world peace. Get my drift?

[TheLoneStoner]

Yucky *was* Adios???? :thud I never, ever would have remotely guessed that in a billion years.


That shock :~ aside, I was struck by what Kathi said about using a OF plastic as a starting point being a hinderance and I thought - wow - it sure would seem to be to me. If you take one and have to change literally everything then why even go that route? Seems like it would be harder then to just start from scratch in the first place.

I DO get the CM thing and have seen some amazing ones but I really do not understand why they would be cast as I thought the whole CM deal was to make one of a kind pieces. I never realized/knew how many resins start out as OFs. I have to say I am quite shocked at some of the pieces that were and the attention and prices they command now knowing that. I guess it does not make a difference if one is up front with it (and I do feel that it should be up front) but I think it is really a huge grey area and have to wonder if it will ever be worked out or if it even matters. Does it matter if you know?

I don't know - it has just been very enlightening to find out all this. I love the few pieces I have and I do not think i want to know if they are cast CMs. If the time ever comes that I sell them (haha) I will then worry and investigate it then. BUT, in the future I will pay more attention and find out before a purchase. Why? I buy very few resins and when I do - I want them to be created totally by the artist.

Thank you for this interesting thread!

[tinnggg]

If not only the original sculptor but *the current owner of the rights to the piece* has approved it then I don't have a problem with people casting CMs. How many people have approached Breyer or Stone for permission to cast a CM? And how many times has permission been granted? Ever?

It is important to realize that the owner of the mold must give their permission. In most if not all cases for plastics, this will NOT be the sculptor.


Breyer approached Linda York to make Destacato plastic. Destacato is (ta da!) a cast cm Breyer. I'd guess Breyer isn't too terribly concerned about it. Linda declined as she didn't feel it fair to Desi owners. Most of the Desi owners IIRC applauded her being considerate but said they would have been delighted to see him in plastic.

Truth is sometimes stranger than fiction. :)

[tinnggg]

Yucky *was* Adios???? :thud I never, ever would have remotely guessed that in a billion years.


That shock :~ aside, I was struck by what Kathi said about using a OF plastic as a starting point being a hinderance and I thought - wow - it sure would seem to be to me. If you take one and have to change literally everything then why even go that route? Seems like it would be harder then to just start from scratch in the first place.
[/color][/b]

Yup - an Adios. Well, to be exact, El Crapolla was an Adios created as a joke after all the anal-retentive biomechanical discussions on haynet. I do not know if it was able to finish its run before DaBar closed as that was before I found the hobby (I did read a bit of history about the resin, if you're wondering). Chris reworked it a bit and re-released it around Y2K, hence the name - Yucky 2K. I never realized just how obvious the Adios form was until L'Inspector came out. I was like, "whoa! Looks like Yucky minus a decade or 2"

You know, I find sculpting to be tedious. I got one of the Breyer sculpting kits. My armateur is over on my work table covered in dust and a bit of sculpy. I barely tolerate the occasional reposition. Man, if it requires me to assemble a bunch of reference pics and pull my hair out getting things smooth and accurate, I *might* get it done sometime in the next bazillion years. I look at various people's works in progress and am amazed that they're able to not only capture Equus so well, but to make things flow.

I think until I feel confortable sculpting in play doh, I'll stick to letting someone else be the sculptor.

[pegasus4240]

I have to amend what I said that if everybody concerned (original artist, etc) is okay with it...legally and all that good stuff, I have no problems with a custom being cast.

The ones, I would object to, are where permission is not granted. Although in case of a plastic perhaps trying to get as many opinions as possible to make sure the custom is worthy of being cast first would be best.

[tinnggg]

I have to amend what I said that if everybody concerned (original artist, etc) is okay with it...legally and all that good stuff, I have no problems with a custom being cast.

The ones, I would object to, are where permission is not granted. Although in case of a plastic perhaps trying to get as many opinions as possible to make sure the custom is worthy of being cast first would be best.

The problem with the plastic customs is, with very few exceptions (CW weaners, ISH) the artist has sold the work outright, which translates to, they don't own the rights to it so at most it's a courtesy thing. Breyer... I get the feeling *may* go after Chinese knockoffs as they're in direct competition but largely turns a blind eye to the plastic Cm to resin thing. Understandable when you think of it as a plastic tub of rubber stablemates is likely to represent millions in revenue whereas the resins rarely are more than 200, and nearly all go to the same cluster of people who buy the plastic *too* (as opposed to instead in the case of the knock-offs). I'm not entirely sure though that they persue it even with the knock-offs as there just seems to be too many out there showing up in stores (midgit FAS, whole cards of largely stablemate sized versions of trads and classics)

I dunno. I think even attempting to police this will just be a giant headache that will cause repercussions everywhere (casting services make money off this too, ya know) and turn people off. Far better to encourage people to make more effort to test their new piece in the show ring before shipping it off to be cast. Maybe a few less nightmares will be out there. :) Then again, many have encouraged budding artists to do just that but ego frequently gets in the way I think.

[mamakaroti]

Breyer approached Linda York to make Destacato plastic. Destacato is (ta da!) a cast cm Breyer. I'd guess Breyer isn't too terribly concerned about it.

I think you may be right about this, Crystal. Breyer doesn't seem to be bothered by it.

When I first saw the custom that inspired me to start this thread, my very first gut reaction was that I felt annoyed on behalf of the original sculpting artist. I could see the original mold immediately, and knowing how proud the original artist was of this sculpture made me feel sorry to see it happen. I see the hardnose reality that she sold the rights to Breyer, so Breyer can do, or not do, what they want. But the more dominant, empathetic side of me immediately put myself in her shoes and felt disappointed to see it. I think I would be flattered that someone was inspired to customize it, but it would bother me to see it cast. It may not bother her at all. :dunno

This is my honest opinion about it. That's what this thread is about--opinions. Opinions are by nature judgments. You can't sugar-coat that one. I don't think there will ever be a consensus on whether this is right, wrong, or somewhere in between, but I think it's good to discuss it. Ethics on any scale are important.

[tinnggg]

I know of 2 that have been or are being released right now. Actually, there are probably more that I don't know of.

If it's the one I'm thinking of that you're talking about (since the original sculptor of the other is dead)... I kinda think the artist is jumping the gun on it - to me, the one part that I'm pretty sure is original looks inaccurate for the pose, but what do I know. Actually, that whole side looks off.

But anyway... while there are occasional signs that tell me buyers are actually looking at a given piece and seeing that it needs help (or that its existance isn't kosher), it's painfully obvious at times that people either have strange tastes or are visually impaired. Otherwise, some of these creations would never sell.

[CindyEvansKTS]

There was a lovely SMB piece at Tri State Live today, my Afleet Alex got the grand honor of posing next to it today, (only because I was watching the set up and people question what it used to be since it was so drastic), so I provided a comparison piece :) to show what the model originated as sculpture wise. You had to look VERY hard to find anything that resembled the original LG mold.

Yep, I got pics of that:

http://thumb0.webshots.net/t/59/559/6/60/58/2071660580094418440XxWklE_th.jpg (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2071660580094418440XxWklE) http://thumb0.webshots.net/t/59/459/4/73/93/2897473930094418440QezqKd_th.jpg (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2897473930094418440QezqKd) http://thumb0.webshots.net/t/14/14/6/34/54/2138634540094418440XTwRrJ_th.jpg (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2138634540094418440XTwRrJ) http://thumb0.webshots.net/t/32/33/7/62/67/2149762670094418440fOkJWh_th.jpg (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2149762670094418440fOkJWh)

[CindyEvansKTS]

I will echo many's feeling here of I do not object to a resin release if:

A.) It looks NOTHING like the original (Yucky? Wow, had no idea either!)

B.) The original Artist/Company is ok with the casting

C.) The Artist is totally upfront and honest that it was a CM'd piece, even if everyone would have never gotten it on their own and they could have gotten off scot-free. I have respect for this.

I myself have never created a piece I felt was drastic enough to cast since one can ALWAYS figure out what it was before. I seriously consdiered it for my Smarty to a sliding reiner but though against it when I concluded he was just way too close to the original.

Also, I don't really like casting ANY custom really, but there are some I wouldn't mind, but I love it when most of them are kept to be OOAK, unique pieces that everyone admires (or hates with pure jealousy since their CM has to show against it ;) ) Mink pieces are great examples of this. :)

But it just IRKS me to the core when a piece is so very blatantly OBVIOUS it was such-n-such a mold and they don't even say anything, or heck, even if they do, I feel they are seriously piggy-backing on someone else's hard work. As MamaKaroti said, the sweat and tears of getting all the right measurements, etc. is enough to want to plan a torch & pitchfork mob to the offending artist.

[brumby988]

I know of 2 that have been or are being released right now. Actually, there are probably more that I don't know of.

If it's the one I'm thinking of that you're talking about (since the original sculptor of the other is dead)... I kinda think the artist is jumping the gun on it - to me, the one part that I'm pretty sure is original looks inaccurate for the pose, but what do I know. Actually, that whole side looks off.

But anyway... while there are occasional signs that tell me buyers are actually looking at a given piece and seeing that it needs help (or that its existance isn't kosher), it's painfully obvious at times that people either have strange tastes or are visually impaired. Otherwise, some of these creations would never sell.

I think I know one of the CMs you mention, and I agree, the artist is jumping the gun on casting it. Aside from the whole ethics of casting a CM, I wouldn't buy a CM that looks that off. But, yeah, what do I know? All I DO know is my money ain't going to that resin.

[brumby988]

Yep, I got pics of that:

http://thumb0.webshots.net/t/59/559/6/60/58/2071660580094418440XxWklE_th.jpg (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2071660580094418440XxWklE) http://thumb0.webshots.net/t/59/459/4/73/93/2897473930094418440QezqKd_th.jpg (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2897473930094418440QezqKd) http://thumb0.webshots.net/t/14/14/6/34/54/2138634540094418440XTwRrJ_th.jpg (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2138634540094418440XTwRrJ) http://thumb0.webshots.net/t/32/33/7/62/67/2149762670094418440fOkJWh_th.jpg (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2149762670094418440fOkJWh)

Wow, thanks for posting those photos! It's great to see the whole horse; I remember seeing it's face in Sarah's avatar. One very lovely custom.

[Roseridge]

Wow, thanks for posting those photos! It's great to see the whole horse; I remember seeing it's face in Sarah's avatar. One very lovely custom.

It is nice to see that Sarah is continuing in the custom craft-- This is an excellent example of a medium CM brought to high art! Kudos for Sarah! :bow

[Artistikchick]

I'm sorry if it's not meant in this manner, but what I took from this is that unless you sculpted it yourself, it's not a real or complete artistic piece.

Nope, that's exactly how I meant it. . .for the person that did the CMing on a plastic that's showing it's original surface in various places, the customizer's part in the project is incomplete. It's the partially finished work of one artist superimposed on someone else's finished work that fills in the gaps. What if someone released a resin sculpture composed of a mane and a tail vaguely connected by a thin layer of patchy epoxy to half a new head and a couple of legs? Is that a finished piece? Because the sculpture might stand alone as a finished piece; ie, a complete horse. . .many CMs (and I say *many,* not all) have only partial work done on them by the CMing artist. If someone takes a story written by another author and rewrites 1/4 or 1/2 of it (even if it makes it a better story) it is not a complete work by that second author.



If that is true, why do many shows including NAN have a whole division just for customs?

Because CMs are, and have been for a very long time, a BIG part of the hobby. It's still an important part of the hobby.


I don't think creating a custom means you have any less artistic ability, or that you are trying to cheat, or even that it's unethical to cast it.

I don't believe I said any of those things. . .



There are several people who enjoy making customs rather than or in addition to original sculptures and need to sell multiples in order to afford to live.

Well, I've got to say that if anyone is counting on selling resins in order to afford to live, heaven help them. I think many artists here would agree that there are easier ways to make a buck.:lol I do believe that I said
I don't begrudge anyone wanting to experience sculpting in whatever way they can if it brings them some satisfaction and happiness! so I feel the same way, if someone enjoys it, by all means, do it.


I feel it's only unethical if they LIE about it.

But that was my point. If someone actually feels the need to "lie" about it, doesn't that imply that they feel they should be going about it in a different way? Plenty of people with cast CMs don't deny it, and in the past it was the norm, so why would anyone even have felt the need to point it out. For the people who don't want to come out and say it, perhaps they would appreciate the confidence and satisfaction they could experience from putting in the extra effort to learn to produce an original sculpture.


As long as they are up front about it beng a cast custom, and the original sculptor has approved them casting it,

If it's a commercially produced plastic, the original sculptor has nothing to do with it. The producing company has control over the copyright issues. The sculptures are viewed as works for hire and the artist relenquishes their rights upon payment from the company.


then I would have no problem purchasing it and would feel no guilt. I feel sorry for all of you who are putting aside many beautiful and worthy pieces

Again, what I said was:
It's an independant decision made by each customer to purchase whatever resins they purchase. I don't think anyone should feel bad about owning, or even enjoying one of these cast CMs. I don't believe I was "putting aside" anything here.



just because you feel so strongly against something that even the person who was supposedly "wronged" doesn't have a problem with. :dunno


The only person who is really potentially wronged in this situation is the customizer! Yes, some people want to do only CMs and they're good at it and God bless 'em! I say go for it! That is the heart of the hobby, it always will be. It wouldn't be a viable hobby if there weren't a lot of folks rolling up their sleeves, getting their hands dirty and getting involved in a personal way!
But if someone feels they're good enough to do a sculpture and take that step toward having it cast, why wouldn't they want to make it all their own? I hear from a lot of hobby folks who say they do a lot of CMing and *want* to do an OS but are too afraid that they might not be able to do it. Every time I sit down with a pile of clay and a roll of wire, I feel the exact same way! Where do I start? What if I can't make it look the way I want it to? What if I put in all this effort and I can't sell it? Doubt galore! But there is something SO satisfying about seeing it come together. . .no matter how long it takes. I really don't care if someone wants to cast a CM, it doesn't have a thing to do with me! But it makes me sit up and take notice when people start getting defensive and I see the hackles go up when this discussion comes up. I think about how it's too bad that the artists in question can't just start from scratch and do original sculptures so they don't find themselves having to defend the resins they're putting out there. I know that it bothers some of them, otherwise this wouldn't be such a heated topic. There are some very talented people in this hobby, people who are more than capable of taking clay or wax or epoxy putty and creating from scratch. THEY just don't realize it yet! So for those people? Yes, I think it's a bad move to cast a CM in resin. They could go so much further with their work and they could completely avoid this controversy. I just feel sorry that some artists have to experience that little lurch in their stomachs every time someone mentions the ethics of casting CMs. I don't know how I can make my point any clearer. I'm sorry if it offends some people, it isn't meant to.
Kathi

[Liz]

I will echo many's feeling here of I do not object to a resin release if:

A.) It looks NOTHING like the original (Yucky? Wow, had no idea either!)

B.) The original Artist/Company is ok with the casting

C.) The Artist is totally upfront and honest that it was a CM'd piece, even if everyone would have never gotten it on their own and they could have gotten off scot-free. I have respect for this.

<snip>

:agreed This is exactly how I feel about this. But can I just add that even if an Artist is going to modify their own previously released resin, I would like them to state quite clearly, no matter how obvious it may be, that Resin B is a modified resin A. Don't just give it a new name and make out it's a 'new' resin. :ppplease

[Inrun]

Out of curiosity...
Should a resin that is obviously a CM (and is known as a CM) be shown under CM rather then artist resins? Does the material in which it's cast really make that much of a difference?

(just curious, not advocating cast CM's, just wondering, please for the love of Bob, don't hurt me.)

[lunarune]

So, I hear y'all but if you do not know (and I would not have a clue) how are you supposed to tell? (assuming the seller does not mention that it is a cast CM from another piece.)

I don't *think* I have bought a resin in this catagory but I really don't know and I have just assumed they are original works as all have been bought from the artist - but maybe not? So if I did buy one and try to
sell it now - I'm a bad guy? :randommil (That is hypothetical as I have a black hole collection - LOL)
Well Stoney, I dread to think what they must think of me as I have brought the Thompson Teke, who is clearly derived from the PSA, although there was never any attmpt to hide where he came from.
I wonder how many other blabbers this thread is making uncomfortable to say the least.

[lunarune]

Mmmm... I find it amusing that just a few years ago, nobody thought anything of it. Then a hobby icon (who ironically has cast a few customs themselves) condemns the practice and half the hobby is up in arms against it. Live and let live, I say. No; it's not necessarily fair to those who sculpt from scratch but OTOH, how many of those have put out some horrific nightmares that shouldn't have been seen outside their studio? :shrug:

Better to buy/cast/sculpt what YOU like and quit worrying about what Susie Creamcheese is doing. (now if I can just remember to take that advice myself :D)
Bang on Tinnggg! My feelings. Unless Stone and Breyer decided they have an issue with the practice, which they clearly dont, does it really matter? really? Is a cast CM going to hurt the pocket of an armature sculpture? Frankly no. IMO, if a peice is liked by hobbiests, for its artistic value, or its conformation perction, whatever it will be sold, regardless of how it stated out life. Sculpt crud from an armature it wont sell, (well maybe it will, ive seen some shockers!) Sculpt a beautiful breed from scratch and if peple dont like that breed it wont sell. Same goes if it was all carried out with a CM.
I fell over myself to but an Indy, but I dont care for Lonestar, so I wont be getting him. No reflection of the artist, I just dont do QH's!
I have the Thompson Teke as I like the breed, I dont have an Aisha cos I think its bloody 'orrible! ( plus the artist really DOES have questionable morals regarding blatent copying!)

[lunarune]

What about resins that are drastic customs that you CAN'T really tell what they were from the original? I have a copy of Sue Thompsons' Tuk resin (her Akhal Teke mare in a really animated trot). I have heard that she's a custom from the PS TB. Now...I love this mare. I hardly ever show her because she's HEAVY, but there's something about this horse that really pulls at me. I'm not going to stop showing her, because I LOVE her...does that make me a bad person? :dunno I hope not.
I have a Tuk too! I love her too! soo PPLLTTPPTTHH if Im a moraless gimboid!. She was derived from a Lonesome Glory I believe!

[Ponypainter]

Kathi! :yourock I agree on many of your points, and so eloquently stated :)

Attempting to make the issue "black and white", as I'm reading through replies, isn't really applicable... This is definitely a grey area in the hobby. I won't condemn people to hell because of the horses they own, simply because I disagree with their origins. We have progressed so quickly with resins in the span of a decade, it's crazy!

I don't think that it was merely just that Sarah MB (who Tinggg mentions) being a well-known artist throwing her influence around to mold minds into her viewpoint. She offers discussion that is often a crucial catalyst in moving the hobby forward and broadening knowledge bases, and I believe that it was simply TIME that we quit turning a blind eye to cast customs. I had to sit down and think things through, after merely taking them for granted previously.

We do have power as consumers! :cheer I won't buy or paint any of these horses, but "to each their own" for those of you that don't find a problem with them.

Tracy

[cheseri]

Thanks Kathy for clarifying what you said, I think I did mistake a few things.

So far I think everyone here is in agreement on one thing: they want to KNOW if a resin is a cast custom, rather than an original piece BEFORE they purchase it. After that it is a personal decision of whether or not they will purchase or not purchase based on that. But artists planning to cast, be aware that people are making themselves heard: potential buyers are more put off by hidden facts that come out later, rather than things that are out in the open from the beginning. Be honest, and you will be rewarded for that. (rewarded in broad not specific terms :grin )

I would really like to hear from someone on the other side of the fence: an artist who has cast a custom. What made you decide to cast? And did you state beforehand that it was a custom? Did you have a reaction either way from the public?
Please be honest in your answers, no one here should attack you for doing so.

[hi_d_hi]

Well Stoney, I dread to think what they must think of me as I have brought the Thompson Teke, who is clearly derived from the PSA, although there was never any attmpt to hide where he came from.
I wonder how many other blabbers this thread is making uncomfortable to say the least.

Even though I won't knowingly buy a resin that was originally just a CM, I'm not crazy about the judgements made in this thread either. "If you buy a resin that was a CM and if you are an artist and made a resin from a CM you are wrong and what you're doing is bad, bad, bad." That's what I'm getting, and I'm not willing to judge people in that light, or think of me as better then, because I don't do that.

You can protest these actions, by not buying the resin, and not patronizing the artist. You can also write the patron and write the artist in private, and letting them know what you think it. Do it in a non-judgemental way, otherwise people don't and won't listen when their backs are to the wall.

Then if you want to carry on a conversation about how to get people to stop doing this type of thing, take it to a private board or list and do so. Bringing it public shames both parties, and that doesn't lead in any way to a forward motion on the subject. jmo

[mamakaroti]

I did not start this thread to make people uncomfortable, although I can see how that can be an outcome where such differing views are being expressed. I have to respectfully disagree with you, Heidi, that it is a worthwhile discussion and this board is an appropriate place for it to take place.

Thank you to everyone who has added their opinions to the discussion. :peace

[laughingmareacres]

I just can't see this as a black and white issue. But I'm also coming from a different viewpoint - as a musician.

In music (and theater), works are redone and rearranged all the time. Paul Hindemith took melodies from Carl Maria von Weber and transformed them into his Symphonic Metamorphoses - a brilliant piece, I might add. And it's a well-respected work. No one seems to be knocking him for starting with another composer's melodies. The movie Clueless is lifted straight from Jane Austen's Emma. How many retellings of Romeo and Juliet are there? And I'm sure a lot of people aren't aware of how many pop songs are just classical melodies with lyrics added (Tony Bennett's famous "Strangers in Paradise" came from a tune by Alexander Borodin, who lived in the 1800s). I know I enjoy arranging music for different instrumentation - I've re-scored a Bach organ piece for woodwind quintet and adapted a jazz band piece for concert band. I've also done original compositions. So from that perspective, I really don't have a problem with casting CMs. I see them as similar to musical arrangements.

Of course, there are caveats. I do agree that those who are casting CMs need to be upfront so the buyer can make an informed choice. If anyone wants to cast a CM'd resin, they do need permission from the original artist (that happens in music, too). The CM'd plastics are definitely a grey area. Technically, an artist should probably seek permission, but Breyer and Stone seem to turn a blind eye to it. :dunno

And I personally feel that the customizing should be significant enough to warrant the casting. Sorry, but IMO simply straightening the head or moving one foot and casting it is a bit lame. That's something that pretty much anyone could attempt with a heat gun (they might not all look pretty, though :lol)