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View Full Version : New Resin by LerMond!!



Fishface
07-17-2004, 07:42 PM
Debbi is so busy, casting and cleaning for Bfest, I thought I would give you guys a "Heads up"

Within the next day or two, she should be releasing her wonderful, new ASB Mare! "Kentucky Reign" (I think I spelled that right...)
This is a powerful, performance oriented ASB...NOT the usual pose.
Not wanting to spoil the surprise, that is all I will say for now.

I think you guys will love this one, too!

The first copy will be on MXc, so keep poised, all.

I hope to have one painted and to Kentucky in time for Breyerfest!!

Chris Jolly

triplebdesigns
07-19-2004, 09:04 AM
There is one on the mXc for sale.....if people want to see what it looks like. Eesh....

th72
07-19-2004, 09:16 AM
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...........*long contemplation*


:uh



:wha



:rolleyes



:thumbsdo:


although ASB's can tend to have thin necks, their legs are NOT string beans like this resin has. I don't like the muscling in the hind end, either.

BUT...I'll give her the mane and the tail. I love pretty manes and tails! :adore but not enough to buy one...ESPECIALLY after all this talk about them on MHHR. but we probably shouldn't go there....geesh! :rolleyes

--tara

MBPearls
07-19-2004, 05:05 PM
I've always thought her resins were cartoon-ish... And I'm not a fan of the manes and tails. Too artistic. This resin makes me realize why I don't like her work that much.

:upset

RobinBradbery
07-19-2004, 06:28 PM
http://auction.modelxchange.net/auction/images/1090216638.jpg

Hmmmmm... not my cup of tea but I admire the work that went into it.

kidwitch
07-19-2004, 07:04 PM
Looks completly unnatural.

Arabian Princess
07-19-2004, 08:30 PM
mmm I admire her "investigation" of the 5 gaitors but the actual resin looks like a disney pony, I hate to say...

I love some of her other pieces so maybe this is just a scamp of her work, a blooper that somehow was made?
I like the body, Its just the mane and tail..... :upset

th72
07-19-2004, 08:37 PM
Looks completly unnatural.

:agreed


I like the body, Its just the mane and tail.....

isn't that funny? I DON'T like the body, but don't mind the mane and tail. :grin BUT....now that I look at it more carefully, I can't recall the last time I saw a MANE like that (the tail, yes), without it being in an outdoor ring in the middle of a windstorm.

nope, don't like it. too bad......

--tara

Griffin
07-19-2004, 09:22 PM
Ehhh... umm... :uh

I appreciate that artistic representation, really. But I don't like this horse. The tail is really cool, the mane's OK, but the body... I see many things I don't like about it. I don't know if these are conformational/biomechanicl issues or just me thinking it looks odd, so I'll just say I don't care for it.

I will say that I really like some of this artist's other work, namely some arabs. I like them because they remind me of unicorns. :adore :lol :thumbsup

~~Griffin~~

ryllina
07-19-2004, 10:39 PM
The legs are a little spindly, but I still like her... she's different. :)

I might get one, depending on my finances.

kidwitch
07-20-2004, 11:00 AM
I couldn't own her because I'd break her too easily. :upset I need something sturdier! :lol I think the main thing I don't like is the way the back hoof is turned up and the neck and that kinda makes it look more unnatural. ALTHOUGH I LOVE Lermond's jumper, what's his name, oh well he's on my wishlist! *winkwink*

Fishface
07-21-2004, 09:24 PM
I received a copy of Deb's PROTOTYPE for her ASB mare today.

Deb has made a few very tiny adjustments that we had discussed, but I must tell you.....

Her photos werve VERY decieving.....plain and simple.

Mind you, I have a personal distaste for the GAIT represented here (lovers of gaited horses, don't stone me!).

"Kentucky Reign" is MUCH nicer in person...more so than I had anticipated.
I am looking forward to getting her painted next week (I am out of town the next few days)
She will arrive in Lexington next week in dark bay tobiano.

I really believe many of you will be pleasantly surprised.

Hey...don't like themane and tail....customize those...simple enough.

Have fun in Kentucky for those going...the rest of us?? Oh well.
But we need to reserve judgement on many sculpts until we SEE them in person.

I don't care WHO did this sculpt...my opinion remains the same. I always prefer to see resins in the flesh as it were, before I decide for sure how I feel about them.


Chris Jolly

Arabian Princess
07-21-2004, 09:27 PM
:adore

I actually kinda like it. I know it has a few touchupy things needed but I am looking forwrod to drooling in person!

AnnArrogance
07-21-2004, 10:20 PM
I think she's stunning. Having been in the ASB business for the past 10 years (and being a WGC myself), I have to say that I think she's a perfect ladies-type horse. While the Open and Amatuer horses are generally a bit thicker and more muscled, a ladies' horse is usually quite delicate-- even to this extent.

As for the hind hoof, I have many photos of my own WGC Gaited Horse with his hoof in precisely the same pose. It's a pose never really seen in any gait but the slow gait and rack, and it's actually part of what we look for to see how much power the horse is putting into her stride, and whether she is truly racking (one foot on the ground at a time) or pacing (left front and hind hit together, right front and hind hit together). Pacing is bad. Debbi really captured a true rack, which is not something all gaited ASBs possess, but they must if they want to be a champion. If you want I can try to find and post a photo of my gaited horse in almost the same pose.

AnnArrogance
07-21-2004, 10:23 PM
Oh, and as for the mane and tail, the rack is REALLY fast and you DO normally get that effect. When racking I could almost never see my hands because they were so covered in flying mane, and I've got a great shot of my horse with his 14-foot tail flying almost straight out behind him in an indoor arena.

Fishface
07-22-2004, 09:37 AM
Kate,

Thank you for enlightening.

Though I lived next to an ASB farm for 11 years, I did not study the rack.

It appears unnatural TO ME and maybe that is part of what is 'bothering' some people about this sculpt. The actual gait is "awkward" in appearance and most West Coast people are not familiar with it...I know I would need to research!

It is always a treat to hear from people who own, know and love any particular breed.

Thanks for chiming in

Chris Jolly

AnnArrogance
07-22-2004, 10:37 AM
Thanks, Chris. I'm so used to getting slammed for riding ASBs by people in other disciplines, I get a bit touchy! There are so many misconceptions about the breed and their movement, but it's really just a matter of ASBs having a different anatomy and physiology than non-gaited breeds. You'll see foals barefoot in the field, head up, trotting high, and even racking before they've ever been touched! They're just built differently, and forcing them into a hunter frame or QH frame would be just as hard on them as forcing a QH or hunter into and ASB frame!

Here's a photo of my old gaited horse who passed away last December (founder) from the WGC show in Louisville:

http://annarrogance.com/Steeler/Louisville2001-6.jpg

You can see that the hesitation in his hind hoof is even more extreme than in the sculpture, and that all his weight is only on one foot (the front left). This is proof of a true rack.

Here's another from a show in Lexington:

http://annarrogance.com/Steeler/lexington20011.jpg

This photo is unedited, and was taken on a VERY narrow track while coming around the turn. You can see the speed of the rack, and the raw power that goes into it.

Sorry, felt the need to share and try to show that this IS a natural, correct pose for an ASB.

ryllina
07-22-2004, 10:52 AM
:wow

Very cool pics!

Heather
07-22-2004, 11:57 AM
That is *amazing*. Debbi must've studied quite a bit to get that sculpture so it captures so much! Not my "style" of what I like to see on my shelves (especially since I don't show performance), but IMO, a beautiful piece!

xox model horses rock xox
07-23-2004, 05:30 PM
i love this model!
its so pretty...!

:yourock

SMichaud
07-23-2004, 07:54 PM
Awesome pics Kate! I was thinking that Debbi really did her research and it musg be like the horse she models her after. Somtimes I even look at real horses and say "gosh, that neck looks weird" or "what a LOOONG back!" But it's real and does exsist and I guess only the people that really know the breeds well know what is most desirable at this time. From the SBs I recall seeing a few months ago, they were so narrown and lanky like giraffes. BUT, that's what many like in their SBs. :yes

Sorry for the passing of that boy Kate. He looked like a real stud muffin! :sad

Sure it won't appeal to all, but I wager that it will to the SB lovers. : ) And Personally, I like the artistic flow of the tail and mane. I'm a hair lover anyway! Child of the 80's sorry! :rocker Racking horses really do have that hair flyin! And I think it was very ingenious to avoid having a base to use the tail and make it rein friendly to go throgh a flying mane. So there's my 2 cents. : ) To each his or her own. :grouphug

Hope I get to paint one one day.

See ya at BF!!!! :cheer
Steph Michaud

flicksmom
07-23-2004, 08:39 PM
From the resin photo, I wasn't very keen. That hind foot did look a bit unnatural. However, after Kate posted photos of her boy (very pretty! Sucked that you lost him :sad) the resin makes more "sense". I think Debbie did a nice job and everything looks very nice!

Of course, I will still prefer my resins "Dozen Roses" flavored but this is a nice piece of a very hard position!

Teresa

seventhdream
07-24-2004, 12:47 AM
I don't care WHO did this sculpt...my opinion remains the same. I always prefer to see resins in the flesh as it were, before I decide for sure how I feel about them.

Chris Jolly

Couldn't agree more with Chris on that statement. There are some resins I know I love from the picture. But more often than not, I need to see a piece in person before I make a sound judgement on it.

red-dog-studio
07-25-2004, 05:24 PM
As far as I can tell, we're still allowed to judge a resin based on a photo of it... so I'll give my 2 cents. :-)

I can tell it's accurately portraying one moment captured during the rack, but it still has that cartoonish look that all Lermond sculptures have. From a purely artistic point of view, it's lovely. But there are other ASB sculptures that are more conformationally correct than this one. The shoulder I can see isn't quite correct (it's very thin -- ASBs often have nice substantial shoulders because they're athletes) and the back is pretty darn short for an ASB. Of course, the legs could be more substantial because you want a horse that will stay sound during those athletic gaits.

Like in Arabians, there are folks in ASBs who really like stylized sculptures of their horses, and then there are folks in those breeds who *don't* like the stylized stuff because it has a more fantasy aspect to it. To each his own, and I'm sure this sculpture will be popular regardless of different preferences. :-)

ryllina
07-25-2004, 06:53 PM
The more I see it, the more I like it... I'll probably buy one. :)

Sunflower Ridge Stables
07-25-2004, 10:46 PM
The FIRST thing I thought of when I saw that horse was... DRAGON. It reminds me a lot of her Mirage, who, as an arabian, can get away with the "dragon" look, but no, not this one, sorry.

Magnolia Ice
07-26-2004, 07:48 PM
It's a Different Resin.... one that will catch attention ..but i don't really care for it...don't get me wrong some of Her other sculptures are beautiful..I just dont like this one..

Stacey
07-26-2004, 10:07 PM
To those of you who can express your opinion in a non-hurtful way...:clap These discussions are very helpful for folks like me who know diddly about breed conformation and such. If it looks nice, I try to buy it, but sometimes it doesn't look nice and I'm not sure why. That's where forums like this really help. Thanks!

Stacey

AnnArrogance
07-27-2004, 03:30 PM
As far as I can tell, we're still allowed to judge a resin based on a photo of it... so I'll give my 2 cents. :-)

I can tell it's accurately portraying one moment captured during the rack, but it still has that cartoonish look that all Lermond sculptures have. From a purely artistic point of view, it's lovely. But there are other ASB sculptures that are more conformationally correct than this one. The shoulder I can see isn't quite correct (it's very thin -- ASBs often have nice substantial shoulders because they're athletes) and the back is pretty darn short for an ASB. Of course, the legs could be more substantial because you want a horse that will stay sound during those athletic gaits.

Like in Arabians, there are folks in ASBs who really like stylized sculptures of their horses, and then there are folks in those breeds who *don't* like the stylized stuff because it has a more fantasy aspect to it. To each his own, and I'm sure this sculpture will be popular regardless of different preferences. :-)

You're certainly allowed to judge, and I'm certainly not trying to change anyone's opinion, but you're off on a few points. This is the most conformationally correct ASB sculpture I've ever seen. Every ASB is built differently, and as there are such large variations in size, shape, and conformation throughout the breed (due to their extremely mixed heritage), you cannot generalize and say "all ASBs look like this."

As I said before, there are MANY ASBs, especially mares, with shoulders this narrow and legs this delicate. They are athletes, but not warmblood-type athletes. They are supposed to be powerful, but you also want that look of refinement, especially in a mare or in a Ladies' class. There is one multi Grand Champion CH mare named Boo!, who is so delicate that her legs almost look too thin to support her weight. But she can raise them above the rail on every stride and rack up a storm. She was almost as fast as my 17.2 hand gaited horse, and no one could get close to him at the rack! She is STUNNING and has won multiple world championships. Debbi's mare looks VERY MUCH like her. I'll try to dig up a photo of here somewhere and scan and post it.

Also, Saddlebreds are SUPPOSED to have short backs. All these ASB sculptures I've seen with these long backs drive me nuts, because it's NOT how they're supposed to look, and NOT correct for the breed. While you may get an equitation horse with a long (and usually "low") back, you will never see a gaited horse with one. A long back makes the rack more difficult. At the rack, the horse should "sit down" a little bit and come under themselves behind a bit. A long back makes this nearly impossible. Of all the ASB sculptures out there, there are only three that I would take into the ring with me:

1. Kentucky Reign
2. LOR
3. Haute Aire

While I love LOR and Haute Aire, they are much less correct than this mare. My specialty when I was showing/training ASBs were gaited horses, so I've seen a lot of them, and I've ridden quite a few champions. ASBs are a complicated and much misunderstood breed. What most people think of as "proper" conformation of an ASB is exactly what we DON'T want! The breed has changed a lot in the past 20-30 years, and horses today looks almost NOTHING like the ASB greats of the past.

Sorry about going off on a tangent, but I can't sit here and read something like "her back's too short" without saying something. I think if more people actually understood the breed, as opposed to much of the incorrect and outdated info on them, they'd have a different opinion of this mare. I DON'T like stylized sculptures, and wouldn't have bought this one if I thought it were. I DO like extreme, though, and gaited horses (real and properly represented sculptures) are nothing if not extreme!

AnnArrogance
07-27-2004, 03:57 PM
OK, I just re-read my last post and relized I came off pretty strong. Let me just say that I am NOT trying to change anyone's opinion or foce anyone into liking the sculpture. I am just very protective of the breed and trying to correct some wide-spread misconceptions about it. It's a very misunderstood breed and I always feel like I have an obligation, having the experience that I do, to try to alleviate those misunderstandings. All I am trying to to is help people understand the sculpture and the breed. If you don't like it, or it doesn't look right to you, then that's that. But all I know is that I (and all the ASB people I've shown photos of it to) LOVE it. I'll still try to find that photo of Boo!, though, just to show that there ARE ASBs out there that look like this-- they're not all 17.2 hand powerhouses.

Anyway, I'm sorry if I came off too strong or offended anyone. That was not my intent. I just feel very strongly about this, and I'm used to debating pretty forcefully on the political board that I frequent.

Stacey
07-27-2004, 08:36 PM
Okay, I'm wondering if anyone else thinks the main right front leg bone is bent where it comes out of the body. Is it just the angle??

Stacey

AnnArrogance
07-27-2004, 10:16 PM
That's just the angle. I finally found a photo of Boo!. It's black-and-white, but she's a black mare anyway! :lol

http://annarrogance.com/Boo.jpg

You can see how delicate she is-- and the trainer riding her is like 6'6", just for info.

MGR
07-27-2004, 10:21 PM
This is the most conformationally correct ASB sculpture I've ever seen.

*snip*

1. Kentucky Reign
2. LOR
3. Haute Aire



Are you considering Dozen Roses in this list? I'm curious as to what you see wrong with him, as an ASB person. I think he's very nice, personally...he's not the crazy-racking-type, but he looks like a very nice English Pleasure horse to me.

What do you see in DR that is incorrect? :) Thanks!

Stacey
07-27-2004, 10:35 PM
Even calling Boo! delicate, she looks stockier than KR, and her neck is shorter and her head looks bigger, IMHO.

Stacey

AnnArrogance
07-27-2004, 10:46 PM
I love Kathi and Ed's work, but I just think he's a bit... stringy. I don't know enough about the intent of the resin, but to me he looks like a really nice 2-3 year old. As a "made" stud, though, I don't think he's substantial enough. ASB studs generally have very thick "cresty" necks and are on the stocky/well filled-out side.

My issues with a lot of ASB sculptures are generally that they're either too stringy (Applause, for example, though I like her large bronzes), too thick, pacing instead of racking, or their head is too small/neck too long and hinged improperly. I see a lot of them that kind of have a "pinched"/behind the bridle look that is fairly unnattractive. Their anatomy is so different than most horses that it's hard to get right.

I like Veiled a lot, too-- forgot to add her in!

Here's a photo of a bronze we had commissioned of Steeler before he died by an artist named Douwe Blumberg. It's going to be a perpetual memorial trophy in his class at the WGC show. I think he did a great job:

http://annarrogance.com/Steeler/Steelerbronze1.jpg

flicksmom
07-27-2004, 11:45 PM
Hey, I don't find the wording offensive at all! And I like BOO! Cute name, nice horse.

However, I do have an issue with LOTR getting Top 3 billing in your list of fave ASBs. The way his head is turned on his neck seems so wrong. Are ASB necks just more flexible than I recall or is that a fault that's easy to overlook?

Teresa

MGR
07-27-2004, 11:50 PM
I love Kathi and Ed's work, but I just think he's a bit... stringy. I don't know enough about the intent of the resin, but to me he looks like a really nice 2-3 year old. As a "made" stud, though, I don't think he's substantial enough. ASB studs generally have very thick "cresty" necks and are on the stocky/well filled-out side.

Aha! That makes sense to me. I've always thought he looks young, too.


My issues with a lot of ASB sculptures are generally that they're either too stringy (Applause, for example, though I like her large bronzes),


I think Applause is actually supposed to be a harness pony/hackney type, which do look a little more stringy. Are we talking about the same Applause? Kitty Cantrell's? Doesn't Patricia Crane have an Applause, too, or am I on crack?



Here's a photo of a bronze we had commissioned of Steeler before he died by an artist named Douwe Blumberg.

That is an AWESOME sculpture! I love the composition. Very neat!

AnnArrogance
07-28-2004, 12:43 AM
I think Applause is actually supposed to be a harness pony/hackney type, which do look a little more stringy. Are we talking about the same Applause? Kitty Cantrell's? Doesn't Patricia Crane have an Applause, too, or am I on crack?

Oops! My bad! Should have specified. I was thinking of Patricia Crane's Applause.

AnnArrogance
07-28-2004, 12:58 AM
Even calling Boo! delicate, she looks stockier than KR, and her neck is shorter and her head looks bigger, IMHO.

Stacey

True, but I forgot to add that Boo! is only 15.1 (I got to ride her once-- she ROCKED but I was WAAAAY too tall for her-- I'm long waisted and need a big neck!). KR, at 16.2, is going to be a bit longer.

Again, all ASBs are built so differently from each other that it's impossible to determine one standard "look" for all of them. A Ladies' horse is going to be 180 degrees from an Open horse, and an Amateur horse is not going to look like either! I'd love to see pics of the mare Debbi used for the model. I'm sure that seeing the exact ASB would really explain a lot.

All I know is ASBs I would buy if they were real, and ASBs I wouldn't. And even within the ASB community, different people like different "types" of ASBs. I know a trainer who LOVES low-backed equitation horses because they make you look like you're sitting back properly, and another who wouldn't buy a low-backed horse if they paid him, that sort of thing. Me, I like the two extremes-- big, flashy, powerhouses like Steeler and a lot of the South African studs (War Chant... drooool....), and the delicate, petite little Ladies' mares. For a three-gaited horse, I like big cresty hinged necks set well back on the withers, a short back, and a sharp park trot.

As for LOR, I totally get what you're saying about the neck. It does look funny in resin, but I've seen it done! ASBs are awfully flexible (a necessity for that "tipped over" headset). If you flip through the stud issue of an ASB magazine, most of the studs are in that same pose. You park them out perpindicular to the camera, and then someone behind the photographer rattles some cans or throws some shavings in the air to get their attention. Man, those ears pop up and that head swivels around like it's on a ball bearing! It doesn't last very long, but good photographers will manage to snap that second, and that's how most people want their studs represented.

Whew! Enough of me being opinionated for one night! Off to bed! :zzz

flicksmom
07-31-2004, 03:07 PM
As for LOR, I totally get what you're saying about the neck. It does look funny in resin, but I've seen it done! ASBs are awfully flexible (a necessity for that "tipped over" headset). If you flip through the stud issue of an ASB magazine, most of the studs are in that same pose. You park them out perpindicular to the camera, and then someone behind the photographer rattles some cans or throws some shavings in the air to get their attention. Man, those ears pop up and that head swivels around like it's on a ball bearing! It doesn't last very long, but good photographers will manage to snap that second, and that's how most people want their studs represented.
Okay! The only place I've ever been able to flip through mags with ASBs in it was at college the library of all places. (And that was well... years ago.)

Wouldn't be the way I'd want a photograph taken but that's just me! Thanks for the clarification!

Teresa

BeezerMom
08-01-2004, 02:21 PM
I went diggin through my resource book to try and find an ASB in a similar pose to LOR. The closest I got was a pic of Casindra's Sultan, a stud from a few years back. You can see how turned his head is.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v83/royalhaven/CasindrasSultan.jpg

By the way AnnArrogance your Steeler was a beaut! Whats his full name?

AnnArrogance
08-01-2004, 03:25 PM
Christy,

Thanks! His full name was CH Doubletrees Steel the Show, and he was the horse of a lifetime! We won the Ladies Amateur 5-Gaited WGC in 2000 and 2001-- 2000 was the first year it was offered and that's part of why we're donating the memorial trophy. One in a million-- he always looked "hot" in the ring, but he never shied or backed off from anything, and he was one of those horses who knew what you were thinking before you did and trusted you so much he would have ridden off a cliff if you asked him to. I miss him every day.

Thanks for digging up the pic, too! Most of my mags are at my parents' house, and the ones I have here didn't have any stud pics!

HorseChick
08-01-2004, 04:23 PM
I've always thought her resins were cartoon-ish... And I'm not a fan of the manes and tails. Too artistic. This resin makes me realize why I don't like her work that much.

:upset


Thank you, thank you!! Cartoon-ish is the perfect word for her works. I never could give a simple explaination as to why I don't like her works, even though I love the Arabian as a breed.

HorseChick
08-01-2004, 04:34 PM
OK, I just re-read my last post and relized I came off pretty strong. Let me just say that I am NOT trying to change anyone's opinion or foce anyone into liking the sculpture. I am just very protective of the breed and trying to correct some wide-spread misconceptions about it. It's a very misunderstood breed and I always feel like I have an obligation, having the experience that I do, to try to alleviate those misunderstandings. All I am trying to to is help people understand the sculpture and the breed. If you don't like it, or it doesn't look right to you, then that's that. But all I know is that I (and all the ASB people I've shown photos of it to) LOVE it. I'll still try to find that photo of Boo!, though, just to show that there ARE ASBs out there that look like this-- they're not all 17.2 hand powerhouses.

Anyway, I'm sorry if I came off too strong or offended anyone. That was not my intent. I just feel very strongly about this, and I'm used to debating pretty forcefully on the political board that I frequent.


I always appreciate it when people much more knowledgable then I take the time to help me to learn. No matter what the subject. You did not come off harsh at all, just as someone who knows and loves the ASB. Thank you.

Graciela
08-01-2004, 04:58 PM
Wow, everyone, thanks for the awesome information and insights!! My initial reaction to KR was, "Whoa, she looks like a cartoon character..." But now, especially after all the knowledge Ann shared, I appreciate the resin a lot more. The more I look at her, the more I like her! :thumbsup to KR!! :cheer

BeezerMom
08-01-2004, 05:51 PM
Holy Crapola! You're that Kate Salmonsen!!! wow I simply loved CH Doubletree's Steel the Show! I always hoped I would get to see him in person but I never got the chance. I bawled when I saw his name on the asha's deceased list. He was awesome Kate! Do you or are you going to have a full portrait model done of him?

AnnArrogance
08-01-2004, 07:43 PM
Tee hee... oops! My cover's blown! :lol Thanks so much for your kind words, Christy! We have the bust that Douwe did that I posted (we've got one copy, a second is being made for the Louisville trophy), which I LOVE, but I would love to ask someone to make a small full portrait of him. Don't think we could afford another bronze, but maybe in resin? Does anyone know if any artists would take a small comission like that? Like, maybe one for me, one for his two other owners, and however many else the artist wants for him/herself? I mean, he's not exactly Secretariat or Wing Commander! I'm thinking of having my KIG done as a portrait of him, but it's not quite the same, you know? I miss him so much, I'd love more than anything to see a mini-Steeler everyday in full stride, with that tail flying out! He's the one horse I will never get over losing.

I wish I were Mary Gaylord and could have a life-sized one done of him! Oh well :lol. Maybe someday when I'm rich and famous!

Thanks again, Christy. It really brightens my day more than you know to hear when people remember him fondly.

Heather
08-01-2004, 08:31 PM
I always appreciate it when people much more knowledgable then I take the time to help me to learn. No matter what the subject. You did not come off harsh at all, just as someone who knows and loves the ASB. Thank you.:agreed I've been following this thread with interest, too. Thank you, Kate!

ryllina
08-02-2004, 11:51 AM
I saw a painted version of the Saddlebred... :drool VERY nice in person!!

Manda
08-02-2004, 01:12 PM
I saw a painted version of the Saddlebred... :drool VERY nice in person!!

I agree with Ashley on that one! In person I really liked the Saddlebred! The pictures do her no justice. She is a very pretty horse, and the painted one was definately drool-worthy!

AnnArrogance
08-02-2004, 07:56 PM
Ooohh... is that the one Chris Jolly did? I want to see her SO badly! Chris, if you're out there, you've got to show us a pic! :pray

My Prototype #1 arrived today, :woohoo :woohoo :woohoo and I couldn't resist unwrapping her and drooling :drool on her. She is AMAZING in person!!! I loved her in the pics, but she is simply unbelievable in person. Magnify all the details in the pics by 10, and you get an idea! She also doesn't look quite as petite in person as in the pics, but she still has that lovely, delicate "Ladies' Mare" look about her! I am SO in love with her-- this girl is never leaving my posession, EVER, for ANY REASON.

Yay Debbi! I LOVE HER! THANK YOU!!! :cheer

ryllina
08-02-2004, 08:06 PM
Debbi was also doing some resculpting still... she had the newest version at BF with her. She I think thickened the legs and face a little and did a few other changes.

I believe that Chris did paint that one that was there! SOO gorgeous!

Erin
08-02-2004, 09:28 PM
Yeah, that one that Chris did was STUNNING! She is going to stand out so much on the show table...I'm going to be looking for a saddleseat set! Kate - what kind of bridle would this mare be showing in? Standard double?

Thanks!!

AnnArrogance
08-02-2004, 09:50 PM
Yup, standard double!

And I have GOT to see the one Chris did! Pretty pretty please? I'm SO jealous I didn't get to go to B-Fest/NAN!!! What color is she?

Graciela
08-02-2004, 09:51 PM
And I have GOT to see the one Chris did! Pretty pretty please? I'm SO jealous I didn't get to go to B-Fest/NAN!!! What color is she?

:agreed Any photos?

Erin
08-03-2004, 11:56 AM
I don't have any photos of her, but I'm sure someone does...She was a beautiful Chestnut Tobiano though. Mmmm...

Ponypainter
08-03-2004, 10:59 PM
I loved the resin when I got to see her in person both painted and unpainted at BF in Debbi's room. There is just so much going on, it is very difficult to see everything in pictures. She is very dynamic! Debbi also had some of her reference pictures there to see, and that helped me understand more about the gait and the refinement that I was unfamiliar with.

About the thin legs- I've shown Arabians, and am more used to refined limbs. She doesn't have a base, so her legs aren't as likely to be stressed, and man is the resin LIGHT! I picked her up, and my arm flew up into the air expecting a heavier horse :lol Unless you have lead tack and dolls, I don't see much of a problem...

Debbi also asked me to paint an Artist's Choice copy of her, so I am excited to get one in my paws!! I'll have to find a killer color for her :grin

Tracy

lbackstrom
08-08-2004, 10:07 AM
Several posts have mentioned Debbi's models as "cartoonish". What makes a model cartoonish and which "finished model" of Debbi's would show these characteristics?

Larry

Stacey
08-08-2004, 11:50 AM
Well, I would view a horse as "cartoonish" if it had exaggerated features, like gobs of mane and tail or exaggerated movement. That's generally how cartoon horses are drawn, right?

Stacey

lbackstrom
08-08-2004, 12:37 PM
Hi Stacey,

I don't know how cartoon horses are drawn. I was looking for examples. Would the resin model "Vertical Limit" be considered "cartoonish"?

Larry

Graciela
08-08-2004, 12:53 PM
I think they meant cartoonish as in possibly extreme Arab profiles, or very long manes and tails, or exaggerated gaits.

I have to say that Vertical Limit is my absolute FAVORITE of all of Debbi's sculptures. He is very, very realistic in my opinion! I love him and his little pooky tongue! :lol

MBPearls
08-08-2004, 01:32 PM
Vertical Limit is the one Lermond sculpture I like!

Cartoonish - well, any of her Arabian ones. The extreme dished face, the mane and tail is very odd sections that seem to catch wind (I've NEVER seen manes and tails like Lermond's in real life). Basically, her Arabians are very stylized, to the point of being more artsy than realistic. If you look at Nahar, for example... he's a very realistic Arabian. But then look at him compared to any by Lermond, and you'll see what I mean by cartoonish.

lbackstrom
08-08-2004, 01:56 PM
Hi Dayle,

Could you single out her Purebred Arabian resin "Ultimate Star" as an example as being "cartoonish"?

Larry

Erin
08-08-2004, 02:10 PM
Vertical Limit is the one Lermond sculpture I like!

Cartoonish - well, any of her Arabian ones. The extreme dished face, the mane and tail is very odd sections that seem to catch wind (I've NEVER seen manes and tails like Lermond's in real life). Basically, her Arabians are very stylized, to the point of being more artsy than realistic. If you look at Nahar, for example... he's a very realistic Arabian. But then look at him compared to any by Lermond, and you'll see what I mean by cartoonish.

I have to disagree here...having shown Arabians for a few years. As far as manes and tails go, Nahar is actually 'folically challenged', as we would have called him if he were real. In the arab showring, it is SO desirable to have a tail that drags on the ground a foot or so. My mare learned how to back up with her hind legs spread out, so that she wouldn't step on her own tail. He's also heavy in the neck, as well as just kind of 'roly poly' all around. If I had one, I'd show him as a part-arabian.

Basically, if you look at your average 'backyard' arab, then yes, Debbi's arabs are stylized. BUT if you look at what's in the national show rings, Debbi's are right on par. I do see where the opinion comes from though, because the new modern showring arabian is practically a different breed of horse than the arabian that most people have experience with. I think that is where the 'Lermond's arabs are cartooney' thing comes from.

I'd post links to some of the Bogg's stallions, or some of Bob Hart's western horses, but my connection is acting wonky at the moment.

JMHO,
~Erin

Erin
08-08-2004, 02:13 PM
Here's one of those tails I was talking about -

http://arabiansites.com/class/patterson/slick.htm

flicksmom
08-08-2004, 02:18 PM
Show ring vs. "home" ring is a never ending arguement. That's why we have Foundation QHs, Nez Pierces, Government Morgans, Flat shod TWHs, et cetra.

Most model horse people seem to prefer a horse that screams it's breed type. It's those undefinitives that give us problems. Personal preferences however, color the buyer's pocketbook use.

Teresa

AnnArrogance
08-08-2004, 02:21 PM
I totally have to back Erin up on this one. We have some combined shows with Arabs down here, and they do look very extreme in real life.

As for exaggerated movement, isn't that the *point* of a Park horse? I know in ASBs, the higher and more extreme the movement, the nicer the horse.

Erin
08-08-2004, 02:31 PM
Ann - Same with Arabs. As long as the horse is moving *evenly* (ie, not raising one knee to it's chin and the other at chest level). It's gotten to that point in the halter ring too, look at *Emanor! He was the Purebred National Champ. Halter Stallion in 1999, then went on to be National Champ. Park horse in 2002. He was moving the same the whole time. I was there at his first regional show in 98, up in Region 5, and then at Scottsdale in 99. He was *amazing*, and he's not even heavy shod!

So the point of that is that Arabs in the halter ring *can* move like park horses, *Emanor is a shining example of that.

lbackstrom
08-08-2004, 02:37 PM
Would an Andulusain in an extreme dressage movement be considered "cartoonish"? I went to Cavalia last month and there was an Andulusian with a mane down to his knees and tail 12 feet long. If anything had "Globs of manes and tails" their hoses had it. Here is the link to their site: http://www.cavalia.net/

Larry

Erin
08-08-2004, 02:38 PM
OK, so I re-read my posts, and my base point wasn't too clear. Here goes:

There is more than one body type in the Arabian breed. Just because someone's personal prefrence and experience happens to be with the more toned down variety, does NOT mean that the other variety dosen't exist.

It all comes down to what you like to look at. Personally, I love the look of Debbi's stuff, and find it to be very realistic and similar to the horses I showed with/against at Regionals, Scottsdale, and the Nationals. If you like the (for lack of a better word) less extreme arabs, that's just fine too. There's enough arab sculptures in this hobby, plenty of types to please everyone.

Graciela
08-08-2004, 02:49 PM
OK, so I re-read my posts, and my base point wasn't too clear. Here goes:

There is more than one body type in the Arabian breed. Just because someone's personal prefrence and experience happens to be with the more toned down variety, does NOT mean that the other variety dosen't exist.

It all comes down to what you like to look at. Personally, I love the look of Debbi's stuff, and find it to be very realistic and similar to the horses I showed with/against at Regionals, Scottsdale, and the Nationals. If you like the (for lack of a better word) less extreme arabs, that's just fine too. There's enough arab sculptures in this hobby, plenty of types to please everyone.

Very well said! I think that sums it up quite well. I completely agree- while I find some of Debbi's Arabs to be not quite my style, I really do like her new Kentucky Reign (Rein? :lol) and Vertical Limit. So it's not the sculpting, it's just the type of Arab being portrayed. That's why one of the only Arab resons I like is Khemosabi!

And yes, I love long manes and tails in real life (especially on Andalusians :adore) but often they don't translate into resin particularly well (in my opinion).

AnnArrogance
08-08-2004, 02:59 PM
I think that a lot of the time Park horses, be they ASB, Arab, Morgan, or whatever, are viewed as being more "cartoonish" or less realistic because people aren't as familiar with them as with dressage, hunt seat, or western. Dressage and huntsest are based more on "natural" movement and behaviors, while Park horses are seen as being forced to move "unnaturally." Of course, for them, it IS natural. I've said before I've seen babies trotting barefoot "above the rail" in the field. It's a whole different way of moving, involving a whole different set of muscles. Like the difference between a dancer and a marathon runner. They both use their legs for their sport, but in completely different ways and with different emphasis on muscles.

I love Debbi's work as well. I think she does some of the most realistic and, more importantly, correct work out there. And yet it's still ART, too-- you get a sense of a heart and a presence that a lot of technically "perfect" sculptures don't have. It's still super correct, and not exaggerated, but there's a soul in her pieces that you don't feel often, in my opinion.

It's like equitation riders. At my barn we had some of the top Eq riders in the country. There were two in particular that traded Championships often. One was technically perfect, but very wooden, with no expression or presence. The other was ALMOST perfect, but had such a presence that she looked like the better rider in the ring. She almost always won and ended up being the first Eq rider EVER to win EVERY National Championship from 10-and-under to Adult Eq.

Stacey
08-08-2004, 03:40 PM
Larry, you seriously do not know what cartoon horses look like? Breyer is doing a bunch of horses based on a cartoon horse movie, Spirit or something of that sort. Horses are depicted in cartoon fashion in Disney movies/cartoons, Looney Tunes had them...all have been around for decades. I am just surprised you do not know what cartoon horse looks like.

I realize show horses have long tails, because I worked with paint horses and I know the work that went into keeping their tails as long as possible, and they're not even as "flashy" as those Arabs and ASB's and such. I would expect to see long manes and tails on Andalusian horses, because I see it on just about every one of them pictured.

Okay, so there are some Arabs in the show ring who have long tails. What about the mane and the dished head? I followed some links off that Arab site showing the Arab with the long tail, and not one of those geldings had the dished head that Debbi's Arabs have, nor did that have a thick, blowing around mane. I think Sarah Mink's Fandango and whatever the other one was have a cartoon look to them, too, with hair blowing all over the place.

Here's what I need to see to be convinced that this stuff exists. If it is so common and well-known among the breeds, show me photos. That's plural, because I'm assuming there will be a lot of pictures of the horses Debbi's resins represent if they are as common as people are saying.

As for Vertical Limit, I have one, and he is the only Debbi Lermond resin I own. He is great, and he looks like the warmbloods I see in photos and the warmbloods I worked with when I was showing hunters/jumpers. He looks real to me. I understand this is art, but if you're selling it as an accurate representation of the breed, how artsy should you be? Can you do both?

Stacey

Erin
08-08-2004, 03:48 PM
Stacey - Unfortunately, the showring arab community is not *nearly* as 'on-line' as the model community is. I would suggest that you get your hands on a recent (within the last five years) Arabian Horse World or Arabian Horse Times magazine, those are the horses you're looking for. Also, 90% of the photos you'll see of winners in the showring will be of their non-mane side, so that won't help you much either. And for the dished faces - check out Padron! Padron's Psyche! Magnum Psyche!

http://www.midwestarabian.com/stallions/index.html

Scroll down to the headshot of Padron. These are some of the best stallions in the breed right now, most of them expressing the extreme dish.

AnnArrogance
08-08-2004, 04:09 PM
Okay, so there are some Arabs in the show ring who have long tails. What about the mane and the dished head? I followed some links off that Arab site showing the Arab with the long tail, and not one of those geldings had the dished head that Debbi's Arabs have, nor did that have a thick, blowing around mane. I think Sarah Mink's Fandango and whatever the other one was have a cartoon look to them, too, with hair blowing all over the place.

Here's what I need to see to be convinced that this stuff exists. If it is so common and well-known among the breeds, show me photos. That's plural, because I'm assuming there will be a lot of pictures of the horses Debbi's resins represent if they are as common as people are saying.

There aren't just SOME Arabs with long tails-- almost all show Arabs have them, as well as ASBs. Long manes are equally universally prized between the breeds. Just because you don't have the familiarity with the show standards of a particular breed doesn't mean that you go around saying "Oh yeah? Prove it because I've never seen it it doesn't exist."

The ASB community is also not as online as it should be, but here are a couple of sites for you:

Saddle Horse Report Online (http://www.saddlehorsereport.com)

Saddle & Bridle (http://www.saddleandbridle.com/)

The National Horseman (http://www.tnh1865.com/)

I think your response to Larry's question and Erin's response was a bit rude and sarcastic, so I apologize because if I seem upset, I am. There's no call for you to be rude to people who are trying to get you to understand breeds and styles of showing that you are unfamilliar with.

Tell you what, if you give me your address, I will personally go out and buy all the Arab and ASB magazines I can find, along with some back issues I have of Arabian Horse World and some Saddlebred mags. How many pictures if plural to you? 400? 800? Because if you see ONE photo of ONE horse in a pose you claim is impossible or cartoonish, you've allready been proven wrong, because, obviously, it IS possible. Send me your address and I'll send you as many mags as you want.

lbackstrom
08-08-2004, 04:14 PM
Larry, you seriously do not know what cartoon horses look like? Breyer is doing a bunch of horses based on a cartoon horse movie, Spirit or something of that sort. Horses are depicted in cartoon fashion in Disney movies/cartoons, Looney Tunes had them...all have been around for decades. I am just surprised you do not know what cartoon horse looks like.


Sorry, I don't watch cartoons. I did watch Shrek II only because they told me it wasn't a cartoon. I do know that Debbi works from life. She takes the original to the different barns where the trainers and owners watch her work with their horses. Once the waste mold is complete, she goes back to the barns with her CO2 tank, turbo carver and apoxie sculpt to work the master model from life.

Larry

Stacey
08-08-2004, 04:32 PM
Whoa! I suppose I could put winking/happy/gleeful smilies all over my posts to soften the words, if necessary, but I certainly did not mean to offend anyone. First of all, I had never said that Debbi's horses were "cartoonish". I was answering Larry's question regarding what was meant by that and I gave examples of the mane and tail seeming along that style. I still think that. And I honest to God have never met anyone, and my work puts me in contact with at least a fifty different people every week, who has not watched cartoons, so I couldn't help but wonder how a person would not have seen a representation of a horse in a cartoon, especially since Breyer now has a whole line of them out in plastic form.

I followed Erin's link and I did look at those stallions. I think Padron's head appears more dished than it actually is because of his blaze. The others look more dished when they have a halter on than when they don't have one. I compared the head of Magnum Psyche, since it was presented to me as an example of what it acceptable, to the heads of the Arab resins Debbi has sculpted. I put them side by side and, do you know what I saw? The dish is similar, but it appears more extreme on Debbi's horses, especially that Scherzade (?) mini. I don't think the line of the curve on the bridge of the nose is what is off. It looks to me like the eye socket bones protrude out more than on the real horses, thus giving the illusion the curve is starting higher and making the dish look more extreme.

Kate, I appreciate your "kind" offer to buy magazines for me so I can see pictures of these horses. All I needed was what Erin provided - something to use to compare to the resins. Thank you, Erin, for being kind in your response and not taking offense.

Stacey

AnnArrogance
08-08-2004, 04:34 PM
I'm sorry, but's it's hard to determine tone in a forum like this.

seventhdream
08-08-2004, 04:39 PM
I don't find Debbi's works to be "cartoonish", just extremely stylized... to the point (and this is just my opinion here) that they are almost artsy to the point of looking unrealistic.

Not that there is anything wrong with an artistic, stylized sculpture of a horse, most are quite beautiful.

However, (again, for ME), other than a few 'artsy' stylized sculptures in my collection there because I enjoy them, I prefer my models to be less stylized, I find that the more stylized artsy models don't show well around here.

Stacey
08-08-2004, 04:40 PM
Kate, I promise you will know if I am intentionally being a butthead. :wink I swear on the lives of my daughters, who are the most precious things in the universe to me, that I have not yet made a post intended to offend or belittle or hurt someone. You're right about trying to determine tone in this forum, which is why I try to not make assumptions about other people without asking what they mean first. :wink

Stacey

ryllina
08-08-2004, 05:08 PM
I think that is where the 'Lermond's arabs are cartooney' thing comes from.


IMHO, that sort of thing (Lermond Arabs are cartooney) is just one person's comment, then a bunch of other people jump on the bandwagon.

I never really understood the comparison to cartoons..... Cartoon horses are like... Pokey from Gumby or something!

Griffin
08-08-2004, 05:15 PM
I never really understood the comparison to cartoons..... Cartoon horses are like... Pokey from Gumby or something!
I think people call a model "cartoony" when they feel a horse has some features exaggerated. That's what many cartoonists do, exaggerate facial features, body parts, etc. to bring out the character of whomever they're depicting.

~~Griffin~~

Erin
08-08-2004, 05:17 PM
Well, in regard to Debbi's horses, I personally think that it's OK to call them 'extreme', but not cartoony. Like Ashley said, Cartoon horses are like spirit, or pokey! Were I the artist, I'd be very insulted by the 'cartooney' term.

AnnArrogance
08-08-2004, 05:22 PM
:agreed Great point, Erin. Debbi works from life, and while they are extreme, there are extreme real horses that match them. I personally would rather have an extreme sculpture than a static one. I would also be really insulted if I heard someone say that about something I knew I had done my best to create from life.

And I want to say I am really sorry about my last post. I have MAJOR PMS today, and I've all ready picked a fight with my fiance (our first ever in 4 years), too. I'm just in a nasty mood! :hugg Stacey!

Ponypainter
08-08-2004, 05:27 PM
I will pipe up and agree with Erin and Kate about Debbi's sculptures. I enjoy painting them as well as a healthy appreciation for Debbi's skill. I don't find them cartoonish, but full of vibrant life and soul that is empty of many other sculptures. There is a romantic quality in them, but I enjoy the sense of wonder and beauty which results. Sculpting is about decisions- and most sculptors aim to create horses that don't have mechanical flaws in them that real horses have. Does this mean that real horses don't have poorly angled shoulders, calf knees, etc? No. That is a similar decision to sculpting an extreme dished head- it is the artist's choice to select from the many different options out there. Everyone has their own tastes and opinions, and I encourage people to buy what they like. If something is unfamiliar and seems "strange", do your homework. Most sculptors have mountains of reference materials they would be willing to share with you, or at least helpful books and links. Making broad statements without being informed doesn't help anyone.

I, along with Erin, have shown Arabians on the National level, and have seen many horses like Debbi's Arabian sculptures in the flesh at the top shows. She chose to sculpt the more extreme type of Arabians, and to include the refinement that is characteristic of real Arabs in the show ring. They admittedly aren't depicting school or trail horses. There is no one universal type of Arabian these days that one can point to and claim perfection for the breed. Like other breeds, there is an increasing specialization of horses entering in sub-types with breeders and exhibitors. Debbi's Arabian resins look just like what is in the US halter and english performance rings. Horses like Nahar competing in there today would most likely be part-Arabians (with stock horse heritage), or be shown in the more popular Sport Horse halter classes. Long manes and tails are popular in US Arabians, and do dominate in the top show rings. If a horse doesn't have a long tail, its likely in the working cow/reining/trail classes, or the owner can't possible coax it to grow longer! Some of my own "real life" examples of hair: Erin's show mare, Amber, had a mane so long and thick that it was a total nightmare to braid for hunter and resulted in cramped fingers every time. I can't tell you the countless hours I took to cultivate my own mare's tail so long that it even went out of the photograph for hunter pictures! She still had some of her weanling tail at the end! :lol People DO actually spend large amounts of time on manes and tails in Arabians/NSH/ASBs to get them growing long and thick, and they are quirky little points of pride.

You won't likely find "real" examples of Debbi's work down the road at Aunt Sally's farm or at most 4-H/County Fairs (papers don't equal quality). Basically, the horses depicted are so high a quality, that the majority of us could never even dream of owning them. (Anyone have a spare hundred thou' lying around? :wink) I recommend going to one of the Regional Championship shows, Scottsdale, or Nationals to gain an understanding of types of Arabians Debbi sculpts. You won't see the fire and charisma of Arabians through photographs alone, just as you can't appreciate the overwhelming enormity of a draft horse until you stand near one.

So, if all the information offered to you in this thread isn't helpful, I suggest that you just don't buy the resins you find "offensive". I don't feel a need to really "convince" anyone that the horses are realistic, as no one can convince anyone that has already made up their mind. But, I would like to share my own thoughts and experiences to aid in squelching the common misconceptions that many people have concerning modern show Arabians. Please have an open mind, and make sure that your statements have a solid base before making broad declarations. We are here to share our love of horses, and should keep that foremost in our minds when having discussions that have different viewpoints! :hugg

Tracy

Griffin
08-08-2004, 05:48 PM
You won't likely find "real" examples of Debbi's work down the road at Aunt Sally's farm or at most 4-H/County Fairs (papers don't equal quality). Basically, the horses depicted are so high a quality, that the majority of us could never even dream of owning them.
But this, of course, depends on what a person's definition of a "quality" horse is. Myself, I like both showy and backyard Arabs and I find quality in both of them.


So, if all the information offered to you in this thread isn't helpful, I suggest that you just don't buy the resins you find "offensive".
I'm sure if they don't like it, they won't buy it. :) I will say again that I do like some of her arabs for my own reasons, and wouldn't mind having some of them in my herd. As far as the ASB goes, I think you've proven that some of the issues people had with it are sculpted accurately, but (realistic or not) that doesn't mean it still appeals to other's tastes.


But, I would like to share my own thoughts and experiences to aid in squelching the common misconceptions that many people have concerning modern show Arabians.
And thank you for sharing your knowledge. Seriously! :) Hope this post didn't come off as too harsh.

~~Griffin~~

Sunshine
08-08-2004, 05:55 PM
I think your response to Larry's question and Erin's response was a bit rude and sarcastic, so I apologize because if I seem upset, I am. There's no call for you to be rude to people who are trying to get you to understand breeds and styles of showing that you are unfamilliar with.

I have been reading this entire thread and have come to a point where I need to step in and be heard. I too, got the impression that Stacey's comments directed towards me and my work and other people's clarifications came across as being quite rude and sarcastic. I have been in the model horse hobby for four years now and have been put threw the "ringer" by well-meaning model horse enthusiasts. Because of this, I am hesitant to show my work before model horse people. I was really excited when I was working on the prototype for Kentucky Reign that I shared her in this prototype stage. BIG MISTAKE!!! I guess most people don't realize what a prototype is - work in progress! I wanted to get some feedback from ASB lovers, trainers, showers, etc before I made the final production mold. I was humiliated and my prototype was literally "torn" apart by well-meaning model horse critics. I have been working on her at BF and since I cam back from the show, but am now extremely hesitant to show her again when she is in a "rough" state, still not finished. I would love to show her to you all, but frankly don't know if I can take any more abuse.

I really feel sorry for any new budding young unsuspecting artists who decide to tackle the model horse community. They better have very tough hides or they will be struck down before they know what happens. I wonder how many of these artists leave the hobby before they really develop their talents and how many great equine sculptors will never share their talents with this crowd. I would like to see more constructive criticism instead of destructive criticism when critiquing new models from any given sculptor. If a person doesn't particularly like a sculpture, then they should preface remarks with IMHO, IMO, etc if it does not suit their fancy. If there is something bio-mechanically wrong with the sculpture, the critic should first ask themselves, am I qualified to critique this model? Do I know enough about this breed to give an accurate critiquie? Am I saying specifically what could be improved on the model, provided I am speaking from a knowledgeable standpoint of the particular breed? Without this, a critic is not helping the artist to improve.

As far as my Arabian models go, I will be the first to admit that I sculpt extreme horses, but there is a difference from extreme, real living, breathing Arabs and "cartoon" horses. I have sculpted in bronze some of the most extreme Arabs in history. I did not resculpt *Padron in resin, nor did I resculpt Forever Ali in resin. I did sculpt the 1/3 lifesize bronzes of these two horses, but my twin sister, Vicki Keeling resculpted these and several other resins which were done off of the original bronzes which she and I did together. BTW, I sculpted *Padron from life and cut out a silhouette from the off side of his head to hold up to the 1/3 lifesize clay sculpture. I also had Rich Rudish come to our studio when I was sculpting *Padron for his critique since he studied *Padron while doing the two paintings for Bob Stratmore. Rich gave an enthusiastic two thumbs up to complete the sculpture. David Boggs also felt that we did the horse justice. *Padron has a very extreme head, blaze or no blaze. Just look at some of the few photos from the non-blaze side to see his extreme jibbah and face.

Debbi

Ponypainter
08-08-2004, 06:43 PM
But this, of course, depends on what a person's definition of a "quality" horse is. Myself, I like both showy and backyard Arabs and I find quality in both of them.


I'm sure if they don't like it, they won't buy it. :) I will say again that I do like some of her arabs for my own reasons, and wouldn't mind having some of them in my herd. As far as the ASB goes, I think you've proven that some of the issues people had with it are sculpted accurately, but (realistic or not) that doesn't mean it still appeals to other's tastes.


And thank you for sharing your knowledge. Seriously! :) Hope this post didn't come off as too harsh.

~~Griffin~~

I won't get into a "quality" debate, but I do think that most people can recognize the difference between a Hyundai and a Mercedes. There is nothing bad against a horse (or car) being suited for its purpose, and its the reason we have variety in anything with our capitalist system.

The idea behind the "if ya don't like it, don't buy it" is that model horse enthusiasts tend to get very excited about criticizing artist works. Some of those critics are knowledgable and do have positive and educational comments, and some people are ignorant and speak without a full understanding. Unfortunately, the latter group is usually the loudest. It's not the actual fact that a work is being criticized, its the lack of tact and respect used when stating an opinion that lends a negative impact.

Nope, not too harsh! I love good discussions :grin
Tracy

Stacey
08-08-2004, 06:53 PM
Okay, what exactly did I say that was rude??? I didn't call Debbi's horses "cartoonish", but I did explain what people might mean by that. I simply said what others have already said about the manes, tails and head. So, what made my comment rude??

I said the manes and tails have a cartoon look to them and, referring back to my explanation of that, I was referring to the large amounts of hair. Was it rude to say what others have already said? If so, why have they not been called "rude??

I honestly was surprised an adult would have never in his life seen a cartoon representation of a horse. Was it rude to say so??

As for saying IMHO and IMO before every statement, shouldn't "I think" suffice?? Is an opinion not what someone thinks? At no time did I say "I know". If we are only allowed to give opinions on horses if the artist deems us expert enough to do so, then how is that coinciding with what this forum is about? I looked at the pictures that were provided to me as reference and, if you will read it, you will see that I say the dish in Debbi's horses is not too dissimilar to the "real" horses. What I also said was that it looked to me like the bones around the eye stick out more, giving the illusion of a more extreme dish.

My question about combining realism with artistic license hasn't been answered, and I think that is the issue here. Can you do both and call it an accurate representation of the breed?

If it was a prototype we were shown, what was sold on MXC??

So, explain to me how I've been rude. Is it because I'm asking to be shown the real life horses to compare to the resin horses? I'm clearly showing I am not an expert on Arabs and I'm asking for examples so I can learn. Is that rude?? Artists worried about showing their work? How about people being worried about expressing their honest opinions or asking questions?

Stacey

AnnArrogance
08-08-2004, 07:04 PM
If it was a prototype we were shown, what was sold on MXC??


I BOUGHT the one on mXc. It was SPECIFICALLY listed as a prototype (Prototype #1, in fact). Debbi even offered to "update" it for me, so it would match the rest of the edition, which has yet to be cast. But I like it the way it is. Here is a link to the auction so you can see for yourself:

http://auction.modelxchange.net/mxc.dll?action=View_Item&Item_ID=1090217013

As for realism vs. artistic license, we have not said Debbi takes artistic license with her horses. I said that they WERE art because of their realism and beauty, and because they have presence and a soul. Now, by saying that I did not mean to imply that Debbi altered the horse she was sculpting from life. But only that she puts a lot of work and love into them, and you can see that in them. You can see the care and exactness in it. And their poses ARE realistic, but again, just extreme. I think it's so much more interesting than "Standing Arab #1," "Standing Arab #2..."

Debbi is not taking artistic license with these horses, and what she is creating ARE accurate representations of the breed-- WITHOUT license but WITH a soul.

Stacey
08-08-2004, 07:42 PM
Okay, so could it be because they are "extreme" representations that people unfamiliar with the breed, like me, do not think they are realistic?

BTW, thank you for explaining your reaction to my words (Kate?). :hugg I honestly did not mean to upset people. I'm just asking questions, trying to understand...

Stacey

Sunshine
08-08-2004, 07:49 PM
Well, I would view a horse as "cartoonish" if it had exaggerated features, like gobs of mane and tail or exaggerated movement. That's generally how cartoon horses are drawn, right?

Stacey

Yes, Stacey, when you responded to Larry's question, you generalized the definition of "cartoonish", but it did start out describing my resins in general. OK, here are the others who started and chimed in with the "cartoonish" label:

MBPearls, KidWitch, Arabian Princess, Red-Dog-Studio, Sunflower Ridge Stables and HorseChick. It is so easy to hide behind anonymity by posting without anyone knowing who you are.

Stacey's was the last post regarding this thought so I posted responding to Stacey. So sorry, Stacey, I didn't mean to single you out so I went to the trouble to add all of the others who put my work down by incorrectly describing it as "cartoonish".

As far as blending art and realism, I am first and foremost an artist. I create art in the form of sculptures for all the world to enjoy. They represent the feelings and emotions within me that I add to the sculptures and still retain the realism aspect. I don't do renderings; I put life into every sculpture that I create. I believe you can do both successfully and that is what commands desire for an artist's work and respect for them in general.

Debbi LerMond
HorseModels.com
Not afraid to sign my full name

BearsnBugs
08-08-2004, 08:10 PM
People DO actually spend large amounts of time on manes and tails in Arabians/NSH/ASBs to get them growing long and thick, and they are quirky little points of pride.

Tracy

Well, this offers nothing to the conversation, but I found this comment funny. Why? Because I can't tell you how long it took for me to get my arabs mane and tail to grow. Forelock--we had a ton of. Mane, we did good until it got chewed up by an app. It took me years (there was a time that the rat tailed app in the barn had a nicer tail then him, sigh)---but I was so proud of him when his tail touched the ground!! Okay, so three hairs touched the ground, but still.... I made everyone in the barn come see!!!

Tina

The mane & tail I started with:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/59854075/60730131wguRjq

The tail closer to what we ended with:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/59854075/59854468TvEBVw

I don't think I have any up with his mohawk that he had when I bought him. The first pic was when it first started to lie over.

AnnArrogance
08-08-2004, 09:17 PM
Cute! Steeler had a 14 foot tail. We actually measured it one time. There's a photo of him (I'll have to try to find it) where he's about 1/3 of the photo and his tail takes up the other 2/3s! We put so much time and effort into those tails-- they're kept braided up in socks, and taken down once a week to once every other week (depending on whether its show season or not), washed, conditioned TWICE, Cowboy Magic'd, the blow-dried and re-braided. They have enough to swat flies with left loose, and their feathers are left loose.

Feathers are another MAJOR source of pride. An ASB with no feathers will usually have a "topper" (like a fall or mini-wig with just the feathers) put on his tail when he shows, and a horse with feathers and no tail gets a "switch," which is basically a long fake tail made of real horse hair tied in. That is also sometimes used if a tail is long, but not thick. Of course, if a horse doesn't have either, then he'll get both! :lol These are legal in every class except Country Pleasure, Country Pleasure Driving, Western Pleasure and in-hand classes.

lbackstrom
08-08-2004, 09:44 PM
I found some real cartoon horses:

http://www.vaxxine.com/sparrow/horse-page.htm

Is anyone interested in seeing photos of Debbi's work in progress of her new ASB?

Larry

Erin
08-08-2004, 09:57 PM
Of course!

AnnArrogance
08-08-2004, 10:01 PM
I found some real cartoon horses:

http://www.vaxxine.com/sparrow/horse-page.htm

Is anyone interested in seeing photos of Debbi's work in progress of her new ASB?

Larry

Oooh! Oooh! Me! Me!!! :pray :cheer

BearsnBugs
08-08-2004, 10:01 PM
I found some real cartoon horses:

http://www.vaxxine.com/sparrow/horse-page.htm

Is anyone interested in seeing photos of Debbi's work in progress of her new ASB?

Larry

I'm always interested in seeing in progress works. Just because I may or may not purchase something, I still like to see the new stuff. Even if it's not in the style I personally prefer. :)

It's one of the great things about live shows or events like BF--sometimes, you see something in person that you thought you didn't like--and really fall for it. An example is the Shania resin that Resins by Randy sells. I didn't like her from the pics I'd seen online and in HA. I went to BF 2001 and what did I come home with? A Shania and was waiting on a Brandi!

Lets see some pics! And not just overall. Lets see hoof details and whisker bumps and....

Tina

BearsnBugs
08-08-2004, 10:02 PM
By the way, Eeyore is a cool cartoon horse!

Tina
Confirmed Eeyore fan

Sunshine
08-08-2004, 10:35 PM
I don't mind posting some in progress photos of Reign, but keep in mind that by changing quite a few areas on her, I have obliterated most of the detail. When reworking a sculpture, I change the major areas first and then add the detail in at the very last minute. I have at this point just added the Apoxie Sculpt to the mane (which was totally redone) after I repositioned the neck further back. All of the hair texture is non-existent at this point. I added to the bridge of the nose and above the nostrils, so the areas are still rough, not even sanded at this point. If you can see through all this, I will post some photos. I will post close-up details when I put them back in. There is no point showing close-ups yet, as there is not much detail to see.

Debbi :)

MBPearls
08-08-2004, 10:50 PM
:lol at hiding behind anonymity by no one knowing who I am!

Anyways, what I want to know is why is it so wrong I find your horses "cartoonish"? It seems that you think everyone needs to like your artwork. I don't. In fact, I don't like Arabians in general. Just as I know that a lot of people don't like Quarter Horses (which are my favorite breed). Heck, there are Quarter Horse types *I* don't like (I'm referring to the peanut rollers and the way-too-fat-for-anything halter horses). There are several QH resins I could point out now that I think are ugly, but that's not the point.

It's not the length of mane and tail that bug me on Debbi's sculptures. It's the "chunks" (for lack of a better word) that all seem to be going in different directions. That's what makes me label it "cartoonish" (notice that Rain in the Breyer line has the same type of mane). The extreme dish face doesn't help, yes, it DOES exist, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

In fact, I'm working on my first repaint. I'll post it here. I'm sure a lot of people will say it sucks, but you know what? My life will go on. It's my FIRST repaint, I don't plan on killing myself if I'm not good at it. There is more to my life than model horses. Everyone has their opinion, and what I find odd is it's okay, as long as you all say you like something. Heh.

Dayle Steinke (wow, did *I* just grace the Blab with my full name? Holy crap!)

AnnArrogance
08-08-2004, 11:02 PM
I can't wait to see the updated pics! She is too cool!

Sunshine
08-08-2004, 11:08 PM
:lol at hiding behind anonymity by no one knowing who I am!

Anyways, what I want to know is why is it so wrong I find your horses "cartoonish"? It seems that you think everyone needs to like your artwork. I don't.

It's not the length of mane and tail that bug me on Debbi's sculptures. It's the "chunks" (for lack of a better word) that all seem to be going in different directions. That's what makes me label it "cartoonish" (notice that Rain in the Breyer line has the same type of mane). The extreme dish face doesn't help, yes, it DOES exist, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.


Dayle Steinke (wow, did *I* just grace the Blab with my full name? Holy crap!)You may not believe this, Dayle, but I don't expect everyone to like my work. There are enough different types of horses and artists to hopefully please everyone, but no one artist or horse type will please everyone. You are entitled to your opinion, just like everyone else. You may not like Arabian horses. Most QH people do not care for Arabs, as they think they are dingy. Whatever floats your boat! I love Arabian horses; always have - always will. That is my prerogative. My husband owns a QH mare and I own an Arab mare. Fortunately, our two horses get along, as they do not know they are different breeds, just that they are horses. We love them both for their unique personalities.

The reason I stated who started this label and perpetuated it is so that people will think before they type. Labelling is not a new idea, but when it is derogatory and it affects the person in question's livelyhood, then it needs to be addressed. Please do not take offense at my defending my rep.

Debbi :)

Sunshine
08-09-2004, 12:13 AM
:lol at hiding behind anonymity by no one knowing who I am!

(notice that Rain in the Breyer line has the same type of mane). The extreme dish face doesn't help, yes, it DOES exist, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

Dayle Steinke (wow, did *I* just grace the Blab with my full name? Holy crap!)Since I did not know what the Breyer Rain looked like, I found a link to it:

http://www.celebrity-ltd.com/amazon/asinsearch_B000063V7E.html

Maybe you should wait to reserve judgment, as I have totally changed the mane on my Reign.

Debbi :)

Heather
08-09-2004, 12:18 AM
I'm looking forward to seeing the pix!!! :woohoo

Graciela
08-09-2004, 12:38 AM
:agreed Can't WAIT to see!! :clap

BearsnBugs
08-09-2004, 07:23 AM
I will post close-up details when I put them back in. There is no point showing close-ups yet, as there is not much detail to see.

Debbi :)

I like frequent updated as you go photos, so this works! :)

Tina

Sunshine
08-09-2004, 01:57 PM
I will be uploading a few photos this afternoon after Larry gets back home from shipping of Kentucky Reign in progress. I will also be uploading a few photos of the SM CM I'm doing for Erin Corbett. Her little guy is really turning out cute! I've been doing a lot of refining on him and still have to do a lot of sanding and putting back details, but I thought you all might want to see him too. The reason for this is that I have decided to do him in a traditional size with the Dressage french roll braid and braided tail. He is going to be ultra cool! The SM is a CM only (OOAK) from Kathy Bogucki's new SM Arab model. I just am liking the pose and thought he might be really cool for a new Arab Trad which is different from the norm!

Debbi :)

Heather
08-09-2004, 02:08 PM
I will be uploading a few photos this afternoon after Larry gets back home from shipping of Kentucky Reign in progress. I will also be uploading a few photos of the SM CM I'm doing for Erin Corbett. Her little guy is really turning out cute! I've been doing a lot of refining on him and still have to do a lot of sanding and putting back details, but I thought you all might want to see him too. The reason for this is that I have decided to do him in a traditional size with the Dressage french roll braid and braided tail. He is going to be ultra cool! The SM is a CM only (OOAK) from Kathy Bogucki's new SM Arab model. I just am liking the pose and thought he might be really cool for a new Arab Trad which is different from the norm!

Debbi :)That sounds SO cool, Debbi! I'm excited to see! Erin's little dude is like a mini-prototype! :adore

AnnArrogance
08-09-2004, 02:14 PM
Awesome! I can't wait to see them both! So exciting! :woohoo

laughingmareacres
08-09-2004, 05:38 PM
... as I have totally changed the mane on my Reign.


The mane on Reign falls mainly on the....

:uh

(So sorry - I really just couldn't resist! :lol)

Erin
08-09-2004, 08:11 PM
YAY! I'm so excited about this little dude!! Can't wait to see pics!

A REAL Hunter Pleasure Arabian sculpture is something I've been looking for ever since I got into this hobby, since that's what I did with my mare, so I can't wait to see the little guy, and am *extatic* that Debbi's going to be doing one in Trad. sized!

:woohoo

Stacey
08-09-2004, 08:29 PM
Okay, I'm going to stick my neck out again and hope for the best....what do you Arab experts think of Brigitte Eberl's Arabians? They are certainly different from Debbi's, so I'm curious what folks think of them.

Knowing how bananas I am about Brigitte Eberl's work, I actually only own one of her Arabians. I won't say which one, because I don't want people to feel like they have to say nice things about it (as if people would try to protect my feelings :~ ).

Stacey

lbackstrom
08-09-2004, 08:52 PM
From what I've seen, she doesn't do show horses, but Debbi focuses on show horses. Also, from several Eberl models I looked at from live shows, each half of the face doesn't match, mainly the eyes. I should note, most models don't match up. I think this could be caused by sculptors who use a pipe in the belly and just rotoate the model on the horiziontal plane. Debbi cuts her sculptures into 7 - 12 pieces and sculpts each piece detached from the model.

Larry

flicksmom
08-09-2004, 08:59 PM
Quick one line comments, for quoting would take too long...

Once upon a time, I read or heard somewhere that *Padron headshots would never been done on profile since his blaze does a nasty optical illusion. To this day, I have yet to come across one - if anyone has a link, please PM me with it!

oooh....hunter type Arabs... :drool I am a sport horse fanatic, esp. when they come Arab flavored.

I like the details in the prototype Kate bought. And how COOL to have the boots on! Saddlebreds have never been my thing (yet, I like Arabs...go figure!) but there are many model saddlebreds I enjoy looking at. I will probably never own one but I admire with the best of them.

I was at a Pinto show once watching some people get a Saddlebred stallion for his halter class. My mom and I got to talking with the guy who leased him and he mentioned that his contract stated that he could NOT cut off any of his tail length. It was rather straggly at the ends - losing 6 inches would have helped it.

Eberl Arabs - I like them because they seem so lifelike and very much "typical" in breed type. They remind me of shots you would see in Arab Horse World when they are doing their farm spotlights - Arabs in natural settings.

And that's it for the short replies :grin

Teresa

Sunshine
08-09-2004, 09:03 PM
OK, guys---


Here she is "reigning" over the little guy. Larry is busy software testing and thought I was going to only ask for one photo. So I combined the two sculptures together in four shots so he wouldn't have so much to upload. At least you can see the size difference! I still have quite a bit to do on Reign, but she is coming along nicely. The little Arab is going to be a prototype for the Trad size Dressage Arab I'm going to do. This SM CM belongs to Erin Corbett and will be painted a scrumptious dark bay by Tracy Eilers.

Debbi :)


http://www.horsemodels.com/IMGP0498.jpg


http://www.horsemodels.com/IMGP0499.jpg


http://www.horsemodels.com/IMGP0500.jpg


http://www.horsemodels.com/IMGP0501.jpg

Liz
08-09-2004, 09:06 PM
I have just read through all this *sigh* and wont say much because I probably wont stop once I start but I would just like to say something I have said before. I really think Debbi and her sister Vicki love the Arabian and I believe their love for the breed shows through in their work, they capture
something that no other artists does. For me their models have that magical
'something', they have that same affect on me that I get when gazing at a real Arabian.

* personally my favourite resin Arabian mare?.....Aisha

* favourite resin Arabian stallions?......Nazeem/*Padron

* Vertical Limit is an amazing resin and proof that Debbi is so talented and versatile that she can sculpt in a totally different style.

* Cartoonish? pfffft is all I will say to that.

Picture of Arabian mane (Arabian race horse in Warsaw)
http://home.iprimus.com.au/cheetah7/mane.jpg

Picture showing dished profile
http://home.iprimus.com.au/cheetah7/dish.jpg

Liz
08-09-2004, 09:11 PM
Debbi, I wish you or Vicki would do a desert type walking Arabian mare! :pray

Stacey
08-09-2004, 09:48 PM
Larry, are you talking about Eberl Arabs or Eberl resins, in general? I just looked at several of mine and could not see where their eyes do not line up...

And, believe it or not, I like the new/improved KR. :wink

Stacey

Graciela
08-09-2004, 09:55 PM
OK, guys---


Here she is "reigning" over the little guy. Larry is busy software testing and thought I was going to only ask for one photo. So I combined the two sculptures together in four shots so he wouldn't have so much to upload. At least you can see the size difference! I still have quite a bit to do on Reign, but she is coming along nicely. The little Arab is going to be a prototype for the Trad size Dressage Arab I'm going to do. This SM CM belongs to Erin Corbett and will be painted a scrumptious dark bay by Tracy Eilers.

Debbi :)

Oh, WOW WOW WOW! Reign is looking AWESOME- I like her a lot. Even more than before! :grin

And that little Arab... Oooh... :adore Is there any way I can convince you to make him into a SM resin instead of Trad.? :lol Oh, but I guess he's too similar to Kuwaiy. Ah well. :sad

Manda
08-09-2004, 10:06 PM
Debbi she is looking awesome! I LOVE her face!! :adore

SMichaud
08-09-2004, 10:58 PM
My turn. Forgive if the operation made me a little moody. I'm off my anti depressants right now and crying all the time. : (

Debbi, she's looking even MORE magnificent and I really mean that! I like the neck better though I thought I liked it before too! If I were a better artist, maybe I could have sold something at BF and been able to put money down on her.

And hopefully I'll still go through with my Almir sculpt. I must say I'm VERY afriad to show him to anyone but I WILL ask Debbi for her guidance if she'll let me and I will not cast him till he's correct..for HIM. I am even considering a trip to AZ to take pics in person. Can't afford it though! I shouldn't have tackled a portrait resin as my first anyway. It really wasn't my meaning, I just sort of got sucked into it by asking the owner for info and permission to sculpt from a photo I saw. I will be heading out to Red Tail Arabinas in the coming weeks to get any and every pic I need though.

As for Eberl's resins? I really like most of them. But honestly I find painting Debbi's manes and tails MUCH more enjoyable than Bridgettes for exactly the reason sme people don't like them. They're just not choppy and harsh...not even CLOSE to choppy and harsh! Beautiful and graceful I think! It makes my hand and brush just glide along the movement of the hair. Thre are a few things on Bridgettes and almost every single other person's resinn that really have casting issues. the one copy I have of one of her new Arabs has the face sort of squished off to one side. I'm going to HAVE to fix that!

Well, that's my half baked pain-pill induced post!
Take care all!
Steph Michaud

Erin
08-09-2004, 11:03 PM
OH MY GOSH!

DEBBI!! I Loooooooove my little dude! He is a *perfect* *perfect* Arab Hunter example. Holy crap. Holy crap. I CANNOT WAIT to have him! I'm going to show his little hooves off!

Arab hunters are so near and dear to my heart, I am SO excited to finally have a model example of one! His braid looks great so far also.

Wow. I really am floored.

Oh yeah, and Kentucky Reign looks awesome too! :lol

Really though, the little dude looks like he's right out of a Nationals Hunter Pleasure class. Now I just need to get myself some kick-butt english tack!

:woohoo :woohoo :woohoo :woohoo :woohoo :woohoo :woohoo :woohoo
:woohoo :woohoo :woohoo :woohoo :woohoo :woohoo :woohoo :woohoo

AnnArrogance
08-09-2004, 11:09 PM
Debbi, she looks INCREDIBLE! I love the prototype, but I love the changes you made, too! They both have different looks but the same "feel," if you know what I mean. Presence or spirit, I guess. She is really awesome-- both versions of her! Too cool! :D I wish you would do one of Steeler, my old gaited horse! :pray :lol

And Steph, you ROCK! You are an awesome person and an AWESOME artist and don't ever let anyone tell you different or think otherwise!!! You ROCK and don't MAKE me keep telling you that! :lol Feel better!

lbackstrom
08-09-2004, 11:15 PM
Larry, are you talking about Eberl Arabs or Eberl resins, in general? I just looked at several of mine and could not see where their eyes do not line up...

I don't remember what one I looked at, but it was some time ago. Sorry I can't be specific. Half the time I can't remember the name of Debbi's models! What I did was to look at the nose and towards the ears (like you are looking down the nostrils). The catch is your eyes will try to correct any misalignment. To get around this, just flip the model upside-down and look at the nose to ears again. I just grabbed a Deseoso and check it and it was fine (except for the ears - they are missing because of a nose/ear dive!) If your model is ok, try looking at some other models and you will see what I mean.

Larry

Heather
08-09-2004, 11:39 PM
Wow, BOTH are GORGEOUS!! Amazing, Debbi! Thanks for the pix, Larry!

Arabian Princess
08-10-2004, 08:59 AM
*swoons over self*

MUST MUST MUST MUST MUST have that horse!! Looks AWESOME AND DROOLISHLY PEFECT NOW, *sigh* how much??

Sunshine
08-10-2004, 10:23 AM
Reign is $250 for a One Mold Run (approx 60-70 castings). I took a few presales on the prototype, but didn't want to get too far ahead of myself so I am waiting until she is finished to announce her again. I do all of the clean-up on each one which saves you time and $$$$ sending her to a prepper (which you might not get her back from). :cheer This includes hand engraving all of the mane and tail (a lot of work). She is a large resin due to the fact that she is 1/9th scale of a 16.2 hh horse. BTW, I still have quite a bit of work to do on her defining all the shapes and details again, but I am pleased with the way she is coming along.

Thanks,

Debbi :)

macgyverfix
08-10-2004, 11:54 AM
Wow! She looks much better with the changes Debbi! She looks more like Boo now-- to me anyway! And her back is perfect! Don't change that at all! Saddlebreds "look" long-backed because of how they are ridden most of the time, with cutback saddles.

And hello Kate! I loved seeing Steeler every year at Louisville. I'll probably catch myself looking for him at the in-gate . . . I'm so sorry about your loss. He looked like he was truly a blast to ride and the consummate professional! Will you be at Louisville this year?

Robin P.
Real ASB Owner/Exhibitor too!
Louisville, Ky

AnnArrogance
08-10-2004, 01:26 PM
Robin,

Thanks! He is very missed, and definitely knew more about what he was doing than I did! :lol I will be there this year, just for the weekend. We're doing a trophy for Steeler in the Ladies' Amateur CH Friday night, so I'm skipping a couple days of school! I'll be hanging out at DeLovely's barn or on the rail most of the time, and of COURSE at the West every night! :lol :woohoo PM me and I'll give you my cell-- I'd love to meet up!

MGR
08-10-2004, 02:31 PM
Hi Dayle,

Could you single out her Purebred Arabian resin "Ultimate Star" as an example as being "cartoonish"?

Larry

Good lord, give it up already, Larry. So some people don't like all of Debbi's stuff. The world continues to turn. Aren't people allowed their opinions?

MGR
08-10-2004, 02:41 PM
I really feel sorry for any new budding young unsuspecting artists who decide to tackle the model horse community. They better have very tough hides or they will be struck down before they know what happens. I wonder how many of these artists leave the hobby before they really develop their talents and how many great equine sculptors will never share their talents with this crowd.

Personally, I think comparing a small handfull of people saying, "Something about this horse is weird...I don't like it" to DESTRUCTIVE CRITICISM that has the power to *strike down* artists is a little melodramatic. I feel badly for you if you got your feelings hurt over the comments on your work, because that's never fun to hear...but honestly, if an artist can't take critiques of ANY kind, whether they perceive them to be constructive or otherwise, if critiques can break an artist's spirit, then maybe they need to take up knitting or something.

Just my thoughts on it. I've been reading the thread, too. I didn't see anything here as being intentionally malicious, but if people can't express their general dislike, or even disinterest, over a piece for fear of crushing the soul of the artist, then what good is having an opinion anyway?

macgyverfix
08-10-2004, 02:41 PM
:cheer Kate, that would be great! I'll email you directly. I usually ride with Premier, but I'm taking a few weeks off.

And for any of you ASB enthusiasts who like to talk ASB OFs, chinas or resins, feel free stop by the American Saddlebred Model Horse Association:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AmericanSaddlebredModelHorseAssoc/

New folks are always welcome!!

I can't wait to get one of Debbi's mares. I really need to get a nice saddle set for her! She's probably going to be my first performance entry!

Robin
http://www.geocities.com/macgyverfix/ASBModelHorseAssoc.html

lbackstrom
08-10-2004, 03:06 PM
Good lord, give it up already, Larry. So some people don't like all of Debbi's stuff. The world continues to turn. Aren't people allowed their opinions?

Give up what? How come you seem mad most of the time? Why don't you start a new thread where you can express your opinions about poeple's work you don't like and people in general you don't like. There is a Yahoo Group called MHHR (and half a dozen MHHR mirrors) that will accept negative comments.

The BLAB is for model horse hobbiests to get together and have fun. If you want to post to the Blab, lighten up a bit. :)

Larry

Sunshine
08-10-2004, 03:17 PM
Personally, I think comparing a small handfull of people saying, "Something about this horse is weird...I don't like it" to DESTRUCTIVE CRITICISM that has the power to *strike down* artists is a little melodramatic. I feel badly for you if you got your feelings hurt over the comments on your work, because that's never fun to hear...but honestly, if an artist can't take critiques of ANY kind, whether they perceive them to be constructive or otherwise, if critiques can break an artist's spirit, then maybe they need to take up knitting or something.Yes, artists can be a melodramatic lot, can't they? But seriously, this kind of retort is the exact kind of thing that I was referring to. Sarcasm and mean-spirited responses are what make young or new model horse artists think twice about showing off their work. I have a call into Stephanie Michaud for a pep talk precisely because of these types of comments. We used to be friends, Melissa. I'm sorry you feel the need to tear me down, but I am not crushed by it. Surprised, maybe, but not crushed. My life goes on and is full of many diverse hobbies, including model horses. I enjoy life to the fullest and plan on sculpting many new horses until the day I die or am no longer able to sculpt, whichever comes first. I hope that whatever is making you unhappy and find a need to bring others down will soon disappear and you will be the happy person I once knew.

Debbi :)

Ponypainter
08-10-2004, 03:22 PM
OMG.... :drool1 :drool1 :drool1 :bow :bow :bow

I love both Kentucky Reign's new look, and Erin's little hunter guy! WHOA! I can't WAIT to get my grubby paws on them to paint. :lol

Like Steph said, Debbi does have extremely "paintable" M/Ts. They are silky smooth, and the brush just glides along.

Tracy :cheer

Sunshine
08-10-2004, 05:11 PM
OMG.... :drool1 :drool1 :drool1 :bow :bow :bow

I love both Kentucky Reign's new look, and Erin's little hunter guy! WHOA! I can't WAIT to get my grubby paws on them to paint. :lol

Like Steph said, Debbi does have extremely "paintable" M/Ts. They are silky smooth, and the brush just glides along.

Tracy :cheerHey, thanks Tracy! I really try to make all of my guys tack-friendly and smooth, especially on the manes and tails. I don't paint, but I do appreciate how difficult it is to paint straight, smooth lines through a mane or tail with a brush. Lumpy manes and tails make it extremely difficult to paint these fine lines in without blobbing them all over the map (or in this case, the model! LOL!). :lol

Debbi :)

ryllina
08-10-2004, 05:45 PM
My turn. Forgive if the operation made me a little moody. I'm off my anti depressants right now and crying all the time. : (

Debbi, she's looking even MORE magnificent and I really mean that! I like the neck better though I thought I liked it before too! If I were a better artist, maybe I could have sold something at BF and been able to put money down on her.

And hopefully I'll still go through with my Almir sculpt. I must say I'm VERY afriad to show him to anyone but I WILL ask Debbi for her guidance if she'll let me and I will not cast him till he's correct..for HIM. I am even considering a trip to AZ to take pics in person. Can't afford it though! I shouldn't have tackled a portrait resin as my first anyway. It really wasn't my meaning, I just sort of got sucked into it by asking the owner for info and permission to sculpt from a photo I saw. I will be heading out to Red Tail Arabinas in the coming weeks to get any and every pic I need though.

As for Eberl's resins? I really like most of them. But honestly I find painting Debbi's manes and tails MUCH more enjoyable than Bridgettes for exactly the reason sme people don't like them. They're just not choppy and harsh...not even CLOSE to choppy and harsh! Beautiful and graceful I think! It makes my hand and brush just glide along the movement of the hair. Thre are a few things on Bridgettes and almost every single other person's resinn that really have casting issues. the one copy I have of one of her new Arabs has the face sort of squished off to one side. I'm going to HAVE to fix that!

Well, that's my half baked pain-pill induced post!
Take care all!
Steph Michaud

:hugg Hope you're doing ok after the surgery Steph!!

And I agree, KR is looking awesome. :)

MaggieBennett
08-10-2004, 06:29 PM
I hadn't stepped into this conversation because at first sight I wasn't really "into" this model...but after looking at photos of the real thing, and with the changes that have been made...Man, I'm drooling over her! Wow. Wish I had $250 just lying around! Great work.

MGR
08-11-2004, 09:35 AM
Give up what? How come you seem mad most of the time? Why don't you start a new thread where you can express your opinions about poeple's work you don't like and people in general you don't like. There is a Yahoo Group called MHHR (and half a dozen MHHR mirrors) that will accept negative comments.

The BLAB is for model horse hobbiests to get together and have fun. If you want to post to the Blab, lighten up a bit. :)

Larry

Yes, Larry, I seem mad most of the time. Clearly, anybody can see that from reading all of my posts here on the Blab. If your sarcasm filter wasn't turned on, activate it now and re-read those two sentences.

From the entire SERIES of posts you made demanding that people point out which of Debbi's horses look "cartoonish," I'd estimate that you were the one who was due for "lightening up a bit."

When did I give any indication that I want to point out people's work I don't like or people in general I don't like?

I just think it's ridiculous that you would react with such thinly-veiled vitriol when somebody expresses a negative opinion about your wife's resins. My point was, WHO CARES WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THINK? Why do you let it get to you so much that you have to make multiple posts demanding that people reveal which of her resins they think look cartoonish? Who gives a pinch? What do the opinions of hobbyists matter to you, or to Debbi? Clearly enough people like her work that she doesn't have any trouble selling out her runs, so why take such offense? And don't try to say that you weren't offended; anybody with a functional synapse in their head can tell that you were.

MGR
08-11-2004, 09:53 AM
Yes, artists can be a melodramatic lot, can't they? But seriously, this kind of retort is the exact kind of thing that I was referring to. Sarcasm and mean-spirited responses are what make young or new model horse artists think twice about showing off their work.

And this kind of response is the kind of thing *I'm* referring to.


We used to be friends, Melissa. I'm sorry you feel the need to tear me down, but I am not crushed by it. Surprised, maybe, but not crushed.

Please point out anywhere...ANYWHERE...public or private, where I "tore you down" and I will be happy to show you how I didn't. I think that is a gross misinterpretation of anything I've ever said to you. I've never tried to tear you down, offend you, crush you, hurt you, etc, etc, etc; if you took any of my comments anywhere as such, then that's through your interpretation, not through my actions. The post I made, that you quoted above, was aimed at the hobby in general. And I stand by it. If artists can be so terribly affected by comments from their peers OR from comments from the general public, then they SERIOUSLY need to grow a thicker skin, in the worst kind of way.

I grew up in a family of artists, and not until coming to the model horse hobby have I experienced such ridiculous emotional trauma over artwork. There will ALWAYS be people out there who don't like your art - that goes for Debbi and myself and every single artist reading this thread, as well as every single aspiring artist. Always! In the end, who gives a rat's behind? Filter out what you can use from the criticism - even the bad criticism - and use it to improve. Ignore the rest. Enjoy your art for what it is - your form of expression. In life we will seldom meet people whose opinions coincide with our own, so enjoy the fans you have and if there are people out there who want to vomit whenever they look at what you create, then hey! Good times! Life goes on.


I hope that whatever is making you unhappy and find a need to bring others down will soon disappear and you will be the happy person I once knew.

Debbi :)

Okay, here it is again. You and Larry have this weird belief that I'm some sort of disaffected, unhappy, soul-crushed shell of a woman. Why? Specifically? What did I ever say, and where, that made you think that I am A) out to get you, B) horribly unhappy with my life, and C) itching for the destruction of the human race, starting with YOU?

After I sent you a letter about my concerns over how our Regionals show was run - a very honest and professionally neutral letter that yet did not compromise my feelings on the subject (and if anybody doubts it and wants to read it, they have only to email me and I'll send them exactly what I sent you...it was one of the least scathing things I've ever written and totally NOT designed to tear anybody down, least of all you) - you CALLED PEOPLE IN THE HOBBY to tell them that I was "really messed up," "lonely," and "needed friends." So who, exactly, is trying to bring whom down, and who, exactly, is the unhappy one? I won't continue with this little segment here, because undoubtedly Heather will move the thread or delete it all together if we keep talking about off-topic subjects, but I won't be called onto the floor as the Destroyer of Dreams without at least exposing some of my side of the story.

Let the record show that my life has never been better and is only looking up. I am happier than I have EVER been. You and Larry claiming that I'm an unhappy creature simmering in my own emotional pain and trauma doesn't make it true by leagues and miles.

That being said, what you did with Steph is exactly how artists should be dealing with their disappointment over nasty expressions of opinion or discouragement: Artists should support each other thoroughly and wholly, but in private; not make a big fat pity party where the entire public can read it. It only makes them look - well, weird - and eventually, in the end, that will trickle down to the bottom line and impact your sales and your reputation.

IMHO, smilies, winks, hugzzz, etc. ad nauseum

Melissa Grant-Ricks, Destroyer of All That Is Good and Light.

lbackstrom
08-11-2004, 11:07 AM
Melissa Grant-Ricks, Destroyer of All That Is Good and Light.

Your signature says it all.

Larry

plasminojen
08-11-2004, 11:07 AM
Hey, thanks Tracy! I really try to make all of my guys tack-friendly and smooth, especially on the manes and tails. I don't paint, but I do appreciate how difficult it is to paint straight, smooth lines through a mane or tail with a brush. Lumpy manes and tails make it extremely difficult to paint these fine lines in without blobbing them all over the map (or in this case, the model! LOL!). :lol

Debbi :)

WOW!!! I REALLY like the new mane ALOT! I can't believe I will be getting one!! I will probably paint her myself a bright chestnut :)

I dunno Debbi...I think your work keeps getting better. I LOVE my Vertical Limit! But this is also incredible...!

For future ideas, I like the desert Arab one...but that mini Arab hunter would be an AWESOME idea in a larger size!

Good luck with future endeavors! I wish I could sculpt that well :)

Sunshine
08-11-2004, 11:21 AM
WOW!!! I REALLY like the new mane ALOT! I can't believe I will be getting one!! I will probably paint her myself a bright chestnut :)

I dunno Debbi...I think your work keeps getting better. I LOVE my Vertical Limit! But this is also incredible...!

For future ideas, I like the desert Arab one...but that mini Arab hunter would be an AWESOME idea in a larger size!

Good luck with future endeavors! I wish I could sculpt that well :)
Hey, thanks Jen! That means a lot coming from you. I respect your opinions on resins in general. I've been working on KR yesterday, adding more muscling to her forearms and gaskins, as well as modifying her face, ears and especially the top of her tail. I brought the tail further forward and flatter like a great photo I found in one of the mags given to me by Dana Niday. I hope to have more photos up this evening of the changes.

Debbi :)

plasminojen
08-11-2004, 11:30 AM
Hey, thanks Jen! That means a lot coming from you. I respect your opinions on resins in general. I've been working on KR yesterday, adding more muscling to her forearms and gaskins, as well as modifying her face, ears and especially the top of her tail. I brought the tail further forward and flatter like a great photo I found in one of the mags given to me by Dana Niday. I hope to have more photos up this evening of the changes.

Debbi :)

WOW! I feel quite honored that you respect my opinions on resins :) I can't wait to see the new look too...will keep checking back for more photos!

Have you ever considered sculpting a fjord? I have a photo of a wonderful pose I have been wanting to have created for a long time...nice rounded canter on a silver dun stallion..!

A desert bred Arab mare in a versatile walking pose would be great too... Being the desert costume nut, I am always looking for accurate horses for that...and one I can put in other disciplines as well!

Arabian Princess
08-11-2004, 01:51 PM
I wish I had the money...PLEASE SCULPT THE ARAB BOTH IN SM AND TR AND I WILL BUY A SM ONE!!! *please!!* Imagine the poor mini shows...having that arab amongst them!! *drool*

MGR
08-11-2004, 03:12 PM
Your signature says it all.

Larry

Was that supposed to be a big zinger, or what? I'm kind of confused about whether you intend for me to laugh or cry over that one. Just in case, here you go: :LOL :'( :LOL :'( :LOL :'( :LOL :'( :LOL :'(

Griffin
08-11-2004, 03:17 PM
IMHO, smilies, winks, hugzzz, etc. ad nauseum

Melissa Grant-Ricks, Destroyer of All That Is Good and Light.
Your signature says it all.

Larry

This is one of the most juvenile posts I've yet seen on the Blab. You don't even bother to address what she said. You just resort to a form of name-calling, like a grade-school fight. Very nice. :clap

Obviously, she was being sarcastic. Yeesh.

~~Griffin~~

Fishface
08-12-2004, 09:58 AM
HOLY S--T!!!!

I quit reading about page 9!!!

OK...some responses I would like to make:

1 Kate...if Deb doesn't jump on your portrait resin, I
would LOVE to TRY.

2 The KR I painted was BAY tobiano, Osti was chestnut

3 One thing that bugs me is that MOST artists thoroughly
research new horses..Deb does to the nth degree.
MOST hobbyists and judges are not as keenly informed
about all breeds and venues and must run off of o ld,
or pre-conceived notions. AND we all have personal
preferences....human nature

4 SORRY...but ALL artist conceptions are Styled!
Some will just look more 'real' to one observer than
another. Only GOD can make a tree....

5 Some of us have Waaaaaaaayyyyy too much spare
time:roflmao:roflmao

6 If you wish to retort...blast me at home...I rarely have
time to come over here!!

I would really hate to see Blab take on the tone I used to see on Haynet. This HAS been a pleasent venue with exchanges of opinion WITHOUT hurtful things.

Remember...we are robbed of the inflection, body language and facila expression on line which makes it SOOO much easier to mis interpret.

If Debbi has one flaw it is simply this....she is intesely kind and CARES TOO MUCH....about everything. One of her finer qualities, in my opinion

Just my Old Woman's opinion and i suspect I am in the top 10% in age here.....as I am closer to 60 than 50.

Chris Jolly

Susan B
08-12-2004, 03:07 PM
"Only God Can Make A Tree"

Oh Chris, YOU ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No matter the amount of research and technical skill, an artist brings his or her unique concept of "Horse" to each sculpture. This is what makes collecting these horses so wonderful to me: The variety, the fact that they don't all look alike, the fact that we can pick and choose among them according to our individual tastes.

I may be off base (or worse!)....But here are some thoughts that came to me upon reading this thread: I think that most all artists put a piece of their heart and soul into their work; and not just any old piece, but a piece of the best that is in them. The very nature of their work almost guarantees this. And maybe this is why artists are said to be "temperamental"; because when we talk about their work, we are talking about them... or maybe it's more like talking about their children. But by creating something and adding the best of themseves to it and putting it out there for us, the artists have put their hearts out there too; for us to embrace, to crush, or to ignore. I don't think anyone would argue that this requires courage on the part of the artist; and so it always earns my respect-- regardless of how I feel about the work itself. Now, having said all that-- I also believe the artist has a responsibility to his audience-- to respect all frank and honest opinions (no matter how painful they may be to hear) and to deal with those opinions with as much grace as possible. It takes courage to give an honest opinon-- especially when it is not a favorable one and/or goes against the majority. So we, (the audience) and they, (the arstists), need to be mindful of each others' positions and feelings at all times and try very hard to maintain respect as far as we can, if not outright admiraton for each other.

Please excuse the sermon... but I was compelled to comment on this thread, even though gaited horses are not my particular passion (although I like them just fine), so I won't be looking to own the horse that started this discussion.

Since finding the Blab, it has been my hope that this could could be a place where artists and collectors could discuss freely the topic we all enjoy so much-- without fear of hurting or being hurt. It's a narrow path to tread. But surely, with sincere efforts, it can be done.

Heather
08-12-2004, 03:40 PM
:bow :bow Very, very well said, Susan!

nanwagner
12-16-2004, 12:25 PM
I have just read through all this *sigh* and wont say much because I probably wont stop once I start but I would just like to say something I have said before. I really think Debbi and her sister Vicki love the Arabian and I believe their love for the breed shows through in their work, they capture
something that no other artists does.

Oh, I don't know, I think Kathi Bogucki captured this exact same arabian pretty darned well with 'Tifla' a couple years ago...

WindyWyo
12-16-2004, 01:02 PM
Oh, I don't know, I think Kathi Bogucki captured this exact same arabian pretty darned well with 'Tifla' a couple years ago...

You're right Nan, I thought that Arab looked familar.

WindyWyo

Stacey
12-16-2004, 02:40 PM
So, is this just a re-worked version of Kathi Bogucki's Arab resin? I don't buy the little guys, so I'm not real familiar with them...:uh

Stacey

MGR
12-16-2004, 04:13 PM
So, is this just a re-worked version of Kathi Bogucki's Arab resin? I don't buy the little guys, so I'm not real familiar with them...:uh

Stacey
Yes...but it's to be "pointed up," which means basically turned into the same work of art but in a larger scale (pointing up is done by mathematically converting all the proportions to a larger scale so that you produce a larger piece, but one that looks the same). Not sure what the copyright laws are on such a thing... :uh but I'm sure Debbi would have checked with Kathi Bogucki about this and got her express permission to do such a thing with a custom of her sculpture...I hope...

Morgen
12-16-2004, 04:15 PM
Stacey, I just went to 'The Paddock' and found the one, I think it's KUWAIY that Nan's refering to:
http://home.att.net/~Bogucki/kuw4.jpg

Huh..? But then, you can never really tell until you have things side by side (scale, width, etc, etc). So take this post with a MAJOR grain of salt please. :rolleyes

[edited to add in proper credits... DUH! these were links found from earlier in this thread & googling: http://www.horsemodels.com/gallery/showgallery.php/cat/537/page/3
and
http://home.att.net/~Bogucki/kuwaiy.html]

Stacey
12-16-2004, 04:18 PM
:shocked

Stacey

Altair
12-16-2004, 04:23 PM
wow...they do look similar...but an arab hunter is an arab hunter, right? one pose will look the same regardless of how it's sculpted, right?

i have to say i don't like Debbi's arabs at all, but then again, I'm not a fan of arabs to begin with :). I do adore Vertical Limit though...very correct! Just not a fan of the stylized arabs with smooshed noses and stringy bodies that are out there right now, both in the real horse world and the model one.

plasminojen
12-16-2004, 04:33 PM
Wasn't the mini Lermond Arab supposed to be a OOAK resculpt of a Tifla? But we liked it so much Deb's making a traditional one? Anyone remember?

MGR
12-16-2004, 04:37 PM
wow...they do look similar...but an arab hunter is an arab hunter, right? one pose will look the same regardless of how it's sculpted, right?

i have to say i don't like Debbi's arabs at all, but then again, I'm not a fan of arabs to begin with :). I do adore Vertical Limit though...very correct! Just not a fan of the stylized arabs with smooshed noses and stringy bodies that are out there right now, both in the real horse world and the model one.
No, Debbi's mini is actually a customized Kuwaiy. She said this somewhere else on the Blab, I believe...? I can't remember, and I don't want to go back through that thread to find it :lol

Morgen
12-16-2004, 04:44 PM
I will be uploading a few photos this afternoon after Larry gets back home from shipping of Kentucky Reign in progress. I will also be uploading a few photos of the SM CM I'm doing for Erin Corbett. Her little guy is really turning out cute! I've been doing a lot of refining on him and still have to do a lot of sanding and putting back details, but I thought you all might want to see him too. The reason for this is that I have decided to do him in a traditional size with the Dressage french roll braid and braided tail. He is going to be ultra cool! The SM is a CM only (OOAK) from Kathy Bogucki's new SM Arab model. I just am liking the pose and thought he might be really cool for a new Arab Trad which is different from the norm!

Debbi :)

There it is; straight from Debbi's mouth. Now we're all on the same page (I had to go back to page 12 to find it)

nanwagner
12-16-2004, 04:56 PM
The original basis for this 'new' arab IS Kuwaiy, which Kathi had created out of Tifla. Of course, it's perfectly OK for Kathi to make a new sculpture out of one of her OWN horses....but as for Debbi...well, if this model started out as a remake of someone else's work as she has apparently admitted earlier, then it sure as h*ll isn't an original sculpture, is it??

MGR
12-16-2004, 04:59 PM
The original basis for this 'new' arab IS Kuwaiy, which Kathi had created out of Tifla. Of course, it's perfectly OK for Kathi to make a new sculpture out of one of her OWN horses....but as for Debbi...well, if this model started out as a remake of someone else's work as she has apparently admitted earlier, then it sure as h*ll isn't an original sculpture, is it??
No, it's not. I know she had permission from Kathi to do the original Kuwaiy remake. As for pointing it up and casting it...well...:uh

Morgen
12-16-2004, 05:00 PM
Mmmm... since (I/we) have now reviewed the thread and seen that Debbie did say herself that this hunter SM is a CM of a resin...before this gets "ugly" :lol lets just hold off on publicly assuming that maybe Kathy hasn't sold the rights or something tho..

Just trying to keep the peace. Peace on earth all! :lol Noel! NOEL! Feliz Navidad dagnabit!!!!! ;)

MGR
12-16-2004, 05:06 PM
Mmmm... since (I/we) have now reviewed the thread and seen that Debbie did say herself that this hunter SM is a CM of a resin...before this gets "ugly" :lol lets just hold off on publicly assuming that maybe Kathy hasn't sold the rights or something tho..

Just trying to keep the peace. Peace on earth all! :lol Noel! NOEL! Feliz Navidad dagnabit!!!!! ;)Fleas Navidad!! :lol

Of course. ;)

HeyMedic
12-16-2004, 06:08 PM
I disagree about Nahar being 'folically challenged'. His tail is flagged high and to the side. I resculpted a complete tail on a Nahar (that had once been haired) and if held at a natural height for an Arab, it would easily drag on the ground. If you do not take my word for it, get a string and measure the tail from the dock to the ends. IMHO, his mane and forelock are typical for an Arab.



As far as manes and tails go, Nahar is actually 'folically challenged', as we would have called him if he were real. In the arab showring, it is SO desirable to have a tail that drags on the ground a foot or so.
JMHO,
~Erin

ryllina
12-16-2004, 08:00 PM
From what Debbi posted... the SM is going to be a OOAK custom from the Bogucki resin. Then she is going to do a totally new TRAD sized sculpture in a similar pose?

Or am I misunderstanding something? What's all the fuss about?

Morgen
12-16-2004, 10:10 PM
Hi Ash! First off, let me just say (since I haven't) that I can't tell you how happy I am to see you safe and sound in FL now. Hope the baby is doing well, give your tummy a big hug and kiss for me.... lol! Why don't cha send me a picture of that while your at it.. ;)

Ok, to answer your question.... -big sigh here-

Here's a link I have bookmarked. Hopefully it's straight forward enough, despite the legalese:
http://www.artslaw.org/DERIV.HTM

HOWEVER, to be honest (hence the big sigh) we haven't heard from Debbie further on the idea of recreating this exactly as a bigger piece (ergo a derivative as defined fairly well in link above).. as far as I know from her site, she hasn't posted pics of a larger identical one to a modified Bogucki.... and for all we know, she may have said 'Nah' or else is deciding to get permission from Kathy. So to be truthful... at this point, it REALLY REALLY REALLY is none of our business..

Now if collectors really really want one, they have two options: convince Kathy to do one, or convince Debbie to get the rights to do one...

I think everything else is a big butt out of it at this point for everyone but the artists involved, since there is nothing for sale or being displayed here.. just an idea that came up. Period.

Don't 4get to send me that pic! :D

AnnArrogance
12-16-2004, 10:46 PM
Wasn't the mini Lermond Arab supposed to be a OOAK resculpt of a Tifla? But we liked it so much Deb's making a traditional one? Anyone remember?

Exactly... she CM'd it for someone, and is now creating her own Arab hunter in Traditional scale because she loved him so much.

I'm a big fan of Debbi's work-- I can't wait to see him done! :)

AnnArrogance
12-16-2004, 10:48 PM
Oh, and it's not going to be a copy of Kathi's horse... he may be in a similar pose, but the SM Tifla is more of an inspiration than a basis, as I understand it.

Stacey
12-16-2004, 11:16 PM
What exactly is "inspiration", though? Did you look at those pictures? When I imagine an artist being "inspired", I think of them seeing a horse galloping around and thinking "Wow! That looks beautiful! I wonder how that would look as a sculpture.." and then trying to create it. I do not imagine an artist looking at another artist's resin and thinking, "Wow! That looks beautiful! I think I'll just tweak a few things and make it bigger and then cast it as my own creation!" Maybe I'm wrong...it has happened once or twice before. :uh :haha

I know this discussion has been raised when artists rework Breyers and then cast them as resins without saying that's what they did. It seemed most folks were okay with that to a point.

I guess we just need to hear from Debbi and Kathi to know who said what or did what.

Stacey

AnnArrogance
12-16-2004, 11:24 PM
"Those pictures" are of the OOAK CM, NOT the Trad. resin-- Debbi hasn't really even started on him yet, so if you haven't seen pictures of him yet, how can you tell how similar he's going to be? She has also collected several reference photos that she's working from, instead of working directly from the SM.

Stacey
12-16-2004, 11:27 PM
Okay, so if it looks that similar to the original, would it be considered a "simple custom", then? How different would it need to be in order for it to be "inspiration" and not "basis"? Just trying to figure out the terms here.

Stacey

AnnArrogance
12-16-2004, 11:36 PM
Well, since that one IS a CM of Tifla, yes it would be. The one Debbi is making is a completely different scale, in a different pose (though still in a hunter trot), and will have a totally different "look" to it. The SM Tifla CM she did (for someone who ASKED her to do the CM for her) in those photos inspired her to do an Arab hunter, but NOT just a bigger version of Tifla, you know what I mean?

This is what I have understood from talking to Debbi and reading her group list. I could be wrong.

Morgen
12-16-2004, 11:47 PM
Copyright law is vague, or better stated - very general - for good reason - to prevent abusers finding one loophole in the wording.

If I took a Desperado, completely copied it, but from scratch and say, in mini form (such as mini Dese was), I would need permission... If I just did a mini version with a different mane and tale, but still, it was basically a copy of Desperado; perhaps not down to the exact shape of the muscles but overall, you could hold the two side by side and see that they were the same proportions & pose essentially... that's a copyright violation as per the link I posted.

Kate, the link I posted: http://www.artslaw.org/DERIV.HTM really gives a plain speak explanation of how you can't just take someone's photo or illustration and make an exact sculpture.... so taking another resin and making another resin (only of different scale) is why people are worried... but I see no direct evidence of that happening.

STILL! We haven't seen the large version and I don't see where Debbie has said she plans to 'scale it up' using the same measurements. The artists have very different styles. Hunter trots and arabs come in all shapes and proportions.. I don't see where the 'potential' issues are actually an issue here except in the 'ideas' being discussed that haven't been validated by either artist coming forwards soooo.. no?

Stacey
12-16-2004, 11:49 PM
Thanks, Morgen. It makes sense, now - to me, at least. :yes

Stacey

AnnArrogance
12-16-2004, 11:56 PM
Kate, the link I posted: http://www.artslaw.org/DERIV.HTM really gives a plain speak explanation of how you can't just take someone's photo or illustration and make an exact sculpture.... so taking another resin and making another resin (only of different scale) is why people are worried... but I see no direct evidence of that happening.

STILL! We haven't seen the large version and I don't see where Debbie has said she plans to 'scale it up' using the same measurements. The artists have very different styles. Hunter trots and arabs come in all shapes and proportions.. I don't see where the 'potential' issues are actually an issue here except in the 'ideas' being discussed that haven't been validated by either artist coming forwards soooo.. no?

Thanks, Morgen-- that's sort of what I was trying to explain. Basically, it's going to be a hunter Arab, but not just a scaled-up copy of Tifla. I can see that it's easy to look at the pic of the OOAK CM and think that Debbi's just going to do that in a bigger scale, but that's not the case. It is going to be an Arab in a hunter trot, but not a copy (or scaled-up copy) by any means.

Erin
12-17-2004, 02:59 AM
Whoa, this thread has come back from the dead!

Just to throw my .02 in there, Debbi can't *really* be working exactly from the OOAK CM of the Kuwaiy (sp?) mini, because he's right here, in my house, in the next STATE, looking adorable as ever, waiting his turn to be painted (NOT by me, heh!). So there will be no 'pointing up'.

Besides, as others have said, there is NO reason Debbi can't sculpt a trad. hunter arab. There are only so many ways to do a Showring Arab in a Hunter Trot...

AND, as Morgen said, he is JUST AN IDEA at this point. To touch on the inspiration post, my CM mini just planted the seed of an idea. A nice braided Arab in a hunter trot. There are none out there, right? In traditional size? And as far as I know, there are none in mini size either, other than my little dude, and he's the only one of him.

I hope I didn't get overly worked up, it just irks me to see people jumping to (or hinting at jumping to) conclusions.

Have a great Holiday everyone!

~Erin

Liz
12-17-2004, 04:50 AM
Oh, I don't know, I think Kathi Bogucki captured this exact same arabian pretty darned well with 'Tifla' a couple years ago...

I am so very sorry that my post has sparked this discussion, I honestly did not intend for this to happen and I feel very badly about it. :sad

My comments were not really directed at the hunter Arabian either, but at Debbi's original sculpting style which I love so much e.g. Aisha. I did not intend to come across as knocking other Artists, I admire all sculpting artists for the gift they have and appreciate them sharing it. I was not aware of the 'Tifla' resin until now so please believe me when I say I was not trying to take any credit away from the original artist as I really was not talking about the CM resin.

My love of Debbi's work is just a personal opinion everyone's tastes are different.

I again apologize to anyone that I may have offended by my post. :sorry

Artistikchick
12-17-2004, 04:53 AM
Hello,
I think I need to clarify some things here. . .
I am the original sculpting artist of Tifla/Kuwaiy
This entire issue is quite simple because it boils down to wording and presentation.
The night before last I visited another Artist's website and was surprised to see a simple CM of Kuwaiy listed under a heading that indicated the group of horses were current and future resin editions.
The CM had been given a new name and when I clicked through to view the numerous photos each one presented me with the same short note. 2 things in that note jumped out at me. .one was the word "prototype"
This CM was being referred to as the prototype for a new traditional scale resin edition. According to Webster's dictionary, the applicable definition of "prototype" is:

Prototype : An original or model after which anything is copied; the
pattern of anything to be engraved, or otherwise copied,
cast, or the like; a primary form; exemplar; archetype.

Nowhere on this website was it mentioned that the arab stablemate was a custom. My name and the original resin's name were not present.
There was a CM of a Tumlinson listed in an earlier section.(labeled CMs) It was properly attributed to the original sculptor and resin.

The other thing that caught my interest was that the "prototype" was to be "pointed up" For information on one method of doing this please refer to:
http://users.lmi.net/~drewid/pointing_faq.html

Anyone who actually read all of that would now be able to tell that "pointing up" is a complicated process used for the sole purpose of creating an exact duplicate of a sculpture in a larger scale. There is a VERY big difference between "pointing up" a sculpture and using it for inspiration.

I have been assisting my Father for 17 years now in enlarging (ie;pointing up) his life-size sculptures. Even though many of those finished pieces contain sections that were sculpted by me, I would never presume to call the sculptures my own. Nor would I attempt to lead others (even by omission) to believe they were my work. The originals, which we worked very hard to duplicate accurately, are my Father's work and his alone.

I had no choice but to address the situation based on the information that was available to me. Perhaps it was a poor chioce of words on the part of the other artist, perhaps it was assumed that others already knew the origins of the piece. It doesn't really matter though. I can only believe what was right in front of me.

As far as the folks who are wondering why this is such a big deal. . . This is not a hobby for me, nor is it for the other artist involved. This is how I make my living and I take matters concerning copyright very seriously. Just like any other business, there is money involved, sometimes substantial amounts. This alone can change how you view a situation. There is also the aspect of reputation and integrity. If it were as simple as "can't we all just get along" there wouldn't be millions of pages written in complicated legalese for the sole purpose of defining and protecting copyright. It isn't a model horse ' thing. . .it's a business thing. What if something were to happen in your own place of employment . . . Let's say you have a really good idea that one of your coworkers overhears you talking about. . .they brush it up, do a quick presentation for your boss and before you know it, they've been granted group leadership on a big project which, naturally, goes well (because your idea was a good one) and they receive a promotion and a nice raise as a result. How does that make you feel?
I was aware of the CM Kuwaiy. The owner and the Cming artist both told me about it during Breyer Fest this year. I had no problem with it. It turned out nicely and I'm sure the owner will be pleased to have it in her show string. As far as the rest of the story. . . I had to make my objections known.
This issue has now been satisfactorily resolved. I thank you all for your interest and concern.
Kathi

NoVaPrepPro
12-17-2004, 06:37 AM
Saddlebreds are well known for being long in the croup and skinny, this one is a bit short in the croup. IMO it's the shoulders that make the horse look "off."

The rack looks unnatural, but I'll bet it can be fun to ride!

http://www.american-saddlebred.com/gaits/videos/RACK.AVI

ryllina
12-17-2004, 08:31 AM
Hm.. interesting. Well, I won't really comment on the ethics behind it until we hear more from Debbi. I see absolutely no problem with her sculpting a new trad Arab that's inspired by the CM she did... but I can understand why Kathi and others would be upset if Debbi did the "pointing up" (or whatever the right terminology is) and directly copied the mini.

Maybe Debbi or Larry can provide some clarification - I know the read here occasionally. :)

Morgen
12-17-2004, 09:29 AM
Well there ya go.
Kathy herself has said this has been satisfactorily resolved.

Lets leave it at that. Ashley, it's probably NOT a good idea to discuss ethics in THIS thread, although discussing the very common pointing up technique would be ok probably, just NOT as it relates to these two peices. As Kathy just said, both artists make their living off of their work.
As far as the rest of the story. . . I had to make my objections known.
This issue has now been satisfactorily resolved. It IS serious business for them.. and again! again! lol! None of ours in that aspect.

Clearly they have been in contact with one another.

But HEY, we all learned something today! And again, I'm always up for a lesson and maybe learning about a new technique.... but not ethics here - puhlease! ;) (lecture over :lol)

noel, noel, noel..... :D

MaggieBennett
12-17-2004, 10:33 AM
Actually, speaking of pointing up...does anyone have a description with pictures? That one Kathi linked to is good but it's hard to understand it without pictures! I think that there's a book at the l;ibrary on it...will have to check that out. Never thought I'd be doing big sculptures! :crossedf:

Morgen
12-17-2004, 10:46 AM
Here's a pictorial of one method: http://www.machinegraphics.com/speedy/enlargement.html

My father did this for a living with toy companies. :) (he would take a small model and make the final sized one)

MGR
12-17-2004, 10:59 AM
Hi Erin!

We were going by the information on Debbi's gallery page, showing your custom and stating, "This custom will be pointed up into Traditional scale." That's what was causing people to be concerned, but it's nice to see that has been resolved now and clarified so there is no mistaking what Debbi will be doing. :)



Whoa, this thread has come back from the dead!

Just to throw my .02 in there, Debbi can't *really* be working exactly from the OOAK CM of the Kuwaiy (sp?) mini, because he's right here, in my house, in the next STATE, looking adorable as ever, waiting his turn to be painted (NOT by me, heh!). So there will be no 'pointing up'.

Besides, as others have said, there is NO reason Debbi can't sculpt a trad. hunter arab. There are only so many ways to do a Showring Arab in a Hunter Trot...

AND, as Morgen said, he is JUST AN IDEA at this point. To touch on the inspiration post, my CM mini just planted the seed of an idea. A nice braided Arab in a hunter trot. There are none out there, right? In traditional size? And as far as I know, there are none in mini size either, other than my little dude, and he's the only one of him.

I hope I didn't get overly worked up, it just irks me to see people jumping to (or hinting at jumping to) conclusions.

Have a great Holiday everyone!

~Erin

MGR
12-17-2004, 11:05 AM
Actually, speaking of pointing up...does anyone have a description with pictures? That one Kathi linked to is good but it's hard to understand it without pictures! I think that there's a book at the l;ibrary on it...will have to check that out. Never thought I'd be doing big sculptures! :crossedf:
Oh, shoot...I know there is a really awesome book that has a whole illustrated section on pointing up. It's called, I think, "Sculpting and Modeling Animals." It's a black paperback with the lettering in yellow, and I want to say it has a yellow line-drawing of a sculpture of a bull on the front.

Morbo has a copy, so she would know for sure...PM her (or maybe she'll see this!) It looks like a really complicated but accurate process. I'd like to try it some day to see how it's done!

Heather
12-17-2004, 12:44 PM
Hello,
I think I need to clarify some things here. . .
I am the original sculpting artist of Tifla/Kuwaiy
This entire issue is quite simple because it boils down to wording and presentation.
The night before last I visited another Artist's website and was surprised to see a simple CM of Kuwaiy listed under a heading that indicated the group of horses were current and future resin editions.
The CM had been given a new name and when I clicked through to view the numerous photos each one presented me with the same short note. 2 things in that note jumped out at me. .one was the word "prototype"
This CM was being referred to as the prototype for a new traditional scale resin edition. According to Webster's dictionary, the applicable definition of "prototype" is:

Prototype : An original or model after which anything is copied; the
pattern of anything to be engraved, or otherwise copied,
cast, or the like; a primary form; exemplar; archetype.

Nowhere on this website was it mentioned that the arab stablemate was a custom. My name and the original resin's name were not present.
There was a CM of a Tumlinson listed in an earlier section.(labeled CMs) It was properly attributed to the original sculptor and resin.

The other thing that caught my interest was that the "prototype" was to be "pointed up" For information on one method of doing this please refer to:
http://users.lmi.net/~drewid/pointing_faq.html

Anyone who actually read all of that would now be able to tell that "pointing up" is a complicated process used for the sole purpose of creating an exact duplicate of a sculpture in a larger scale. There is a VERY big difference between "pointing up" a sculpture and using it for inspiration.Well. I would definitely think that this would be a cause for grave concern. Thank you for giving us a clear picture of what the issue is. I hope that this does not come to fruition, especially via the method that was originally detailed.

HeyMedic
12-17-2004, 03:52 PM
I feel qualified to comment on this and I am going to disagree with Morgen.

IF artists resins can be copyrighted at all, the artist would have to prove that their work or style is unusual, unique and distinguishable. In other words, an artist cannot copyright (and thus monopolize) a particular position, gait, maneuver, breed type or other characteristic that is considered inherent to horses.

So, even if we were to assume that artists resins can be copyrighted, the "Fair Use" doctrine could be used a defense.

"Fair Use" Doctrine. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use factors to be considered shall include:

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

Would the copied resin be shown, displayed or kept within a private collection?

(2) the nature of the copyrighted work:

How distinct is the copyrighted resin from other resins and how does it vary from what is inherently natural to horses? Is it jumping, in a piaffe, rolling, bucking? Could you provide reference photos of real horses in an identical or nearly identical position? How realistic is the resin? Is it in a style that is completely unique to that particular artist? All of these factors come into play.

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole.

How similar would the copied resin be to the one that is copyrighted?

(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

Would the copied resin effect the marketability or value of the copyrighted resin?


The case that was cited in the link that Morgen provided involved a copyrighted photographic image of a couple holding eight puppies that was later used as a model for four sculptures. The defendant appealed and the case was remanded to the trial court for a decision.

NOTE: This is NOT to be construed as legal advice nor do I condone or encourage copying other artists' resins. If in doubt consult your attorney.







Copyright law is vague, or better stated - very general - for good reason - to prevent abusers finding one loophole in the wording.

If I took a Desperado, completely copied it, but from scratch and say, in mini form (such as mini Dese was), I would need permission... If I just did a mini version with a different mane and tale, but still, it was basically a copy of Desperado; perhaps not down to the exact shape of the muscles but overall, you could hold the two side by side and see that they were the same proportions & pose essentially... that's a copyright violation as per the link I posted.

Kate, the link I posted: http://www.artslaw.org/DERIV.HTM really gives a plain speak explanation of how you can't just take someone's photo or illustration and make an exact sculpture.... so taking another resin and making another resin (only of different scale) is why people are worried... but I see no direct evidence of that happening.

STILL! We haven't seen the large version and I don't see where Debbie has said she plans to 'scale it up' using the same measurements. The artists have very different styles. Hunter trots and arabs come in all shapes and proportions.. I don't see where the 'potential' issues are actually an issue here except in the 'ideas' being discussed that haven't been validated by either artist coming forwards soooo.. no?

Heather
12-17-2004, 04:50 PM
In my opinion, regardless of any legalese, if an artist - ANY artist - makes an obvious copy of a pre-existing hobby resin, it's extremely tacky, period. It won't win the respect of most hobbyists, either. Sadly, this (potential) situation is not the first. There's at least one artist I can think of that has several resins that resemble other artists work that by far predate her creations. It's so unfortunate. This hobby is too small to be disrespecting the hard work and heart that goes into the original resins some of these artists produce. We should have more respect for each other than that.

wonderwomn
12-17-2004, 05:13 PM
WOW! What a thread! It is so many in one! Kate you are an amazing source of knowledge for a breed I know nothing about! Thank you!

To any artist, Bravo to you for making something. It is art, there is always going to be someone that doesn't like it. Just because you don't like something, does not make those that do like it bad or stupid. It is opinion. If we all liked the same thing it would be very boring!

It is very easy in a typed medium to come across more harsh than one intended.

As for the art looking like someone else's I won't even go there.

Morgen
12-17-2004, 06:29 PM
Hi Paul,
a) Let me state that I respect greatly that you've got significantly more legal background than I :lol ;)

b) What about the Berne Law http://www.artslaw.org/NOTICE.HTM

From Circular 40 (Copyright Registration for Works of the Visual Arts - http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ40.html):

GENERAL INFORMATION
Copyright is a form of protection provided by the laws of the United States to the authors of “original works of authorship,” including “pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works.” The owner of copyright in a work has the exclusive right to make copies, to prepare derivative works, to sell or distribute copies, and to display the work publicly. Anyone else wishing to use the work in these ways must have the permission of the author or someone who has derived rights through the author.

Copyright Protection Is Automatic
Under the present copyright law, which became effective Jan. 1, 1978, a work is automatically protected by copyright when it is created. A work is created when it is “fixed” in a copy or phonorecord for the first time. Neither registration in the Copyright Office nor publication is required for copyright protection under the present law.
I'm laughing though, because I sincerely, sincerely hope I personally never need to know much more than this about copyrights... and also because the first thing they teach you in art classes of any kind (including computer ones hopefully! certainly employers expect you to know something about digital usage rights ;) ) - is that originality is first and foremost... and thereafter professors will make a big hype about credit or permissions MUST be given if either are due. I wonder if the internet world is changing any of that. From what I've seen on the copyright site over the past few years (changes), mostly digital media has forced copyright authorities to really give more leverage to the original creator/owners (since the nature of digital media is so multifaceted that registering for all forms in many cases would be impossible... heck, I've made animations for my last company that were used just about in every format they could think of in the name of 'branding' a concept.). Still, I would always defer questions on usage of other's work if I couldn't buy rights, to the patent and trademark council we had... so, lol! ;) what do I know! :)

In the end, lets just hope there is never a case of copyright infringment seen the hobby, period. :rolleyes Heck, I'd bet the cost of the case alone would be more than any resin edition is worth. Such serious ground to tread upon.... (and Morgen thusly tippy toes away :~ )

Morgen
12-17-2004, 06:31 PM
oh ya... and now for my disclaimer! :uh

if anyone mis-construes anything i say for sound legal advice... :roflmao

MGR
12-17-2004, 07:14 PM
I feel qualified to comment on this and I am going to disagree with Morgen.

IF artists resins can be copyrighted at all, the artist would have to prove that their work or style is unusual, unique and distinguishable.

I don't know, I'd have to disagree there. ;) I've always understood copyright laws to apply to any created work, regardless of the medium, so artist resins WOULD fall under the law and the definitely are copyrighted. The issue at hand here was not whether the POSE was copyrighted by Kathi, but the fact that the wording on Debbi's web site made it look as if she intended to make an exact copy of Kathi's work, but in larger scale...which I am sure you would agree would be a copyright infringement, the same as (to use a very simplified example :lol) making a photo enlargement of somebody else's painting and then selling it as your own work.

I'm VERY glad the confusion was cleared up betweeh Kathi and Debbi, though! :cheer

HeyMedic
12-17-2004, 08:18 PM
Morgen, it has been a very long time since I have been in practice so I am sure you could teach me a thing or two about digital usage rights. You seem quite knowledgeable in that area and I respect that.

I do not believe Berne Law is applicable here because we are assuming that the copied horse was sculpted entirely from scratch. It is thus a work of art in its own right. While that artist may have used another artist's idea or concept, this is not a copyright infringement.




Hi Paul,
a) Let me state that I respect greatly that you've got significantly more legal background than I :lol ;)

b) What about the Berne Law http://www.artslaw.org/NOTICE.HTM

From Circular 40 (Copyright Registration for Works of the Visual Arts - http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ40.html):

I'm laughing though, because I sincerely, sincerely hope I personally never need to know much more than this about copyrights... and also because the first thing they teach you in art classes of any kind (including computer ones hopefully! certainly employers expect you to know something about digital usage rights ;) ) - is that originality is first and foremost... and thereafter professors will make a big hype about credit or permissions MUST be given if either are due. I wonder if the internet world is changing any of that. From what I've seen on the copyright site over the past few years (changes), mostly digital media has forced copyright authorities to really give more leverage to the original creator/owners (since the nature of digital media is so multifaceted that registering for all forms in many cases would be impossible... heck, I've made animations for my last company that were used just about in every format they could think of in the name of 'branding' a concept.). Still, I would always defer questions on usage of other's work if I couldn't buy rights, to the patent and trademark council we had... so, lol! ;) what do I know! :)

In the end, lets just hope there is never a case of copyright infringment seen the hobby, period. :rolleyes Heck, I'd bet the cost of the case alone would be more than any resin edition is worth. Such serious ground to tread upon.... (and Morgen thusly tippy toes away :~ )

HeyMedic
12-17-2004, 08:36 PM
It technically would be impossible for Debbi to make an *exact copy* of Kathi's work unless she was casting or mechanically reproducing it. Making a photo enlargement of someone's painting and selling it as your own work is entirely different from sculpting a horse from scratch, simply based on another artist's piece. This is not infringement.



I don't know, I'd have to disagree there. ;) I've always understood copyright laws to apply to any created work, regardless of the medium, so artist resins WOULD fall under the law and the definitely are copyrighted. The issue at hand here was not whether the POSE was copyrighted by Kathi, but the fact that the wording on Debbi's web site made it look as if she intended to make an exact copy of Kathi's work, but in larger scale...which I am sure you would agree would be a copyright infringement, the same as (to use a very simplified example :lol) making a photo enlargement of somebody else's painting and then selling it as your own work.

I'm VERY glad the confusion was cleared up betweeh Kathi and Debbi, though! :cheer

Heather
12-17-2004, 09:30 PM
Regardless, no matter how hairs are split, I think the underlying point here is that it's wrong, and it's tacky. :lol

Morgen
12-17-2004, 09:43 PM
Paul, regarding your answer to MGR, technically it's now possible to make any sized scale exact replica of anything now. My foot for example. Let alone a sculpture -- the method of 'pointing up' is an age old sculpting technique used by masters for many centuries: the would sit in studios making small clay sculptures and their disciples would then 'point them up' into marble sculpture. Here's one fairly homemade type of method: http://www.machinegraphics.com/speedy/enlargement.htmthere are even simpler less exacting methods out there... I would be extremely surprized if the law didn't recognize this centuries old method of copying as still 'copying'. ..?

Regarding the size & Berne law -- I'm fairly sure it does apply here:

It technically would be impossible for Debbi to make an *exact copy* of Kathi's work unless she was casting or mechanically reproducing it. Making a photo enlargement of someone's painting and selling it as your own work is entirely different from sculpting a horse from scratch, simply based on another artist's piece. This is not infringement.

I do not believe Berne Law is applicable here because we are assuming that the copied horse was sculpted entirely from scratch. It is thus a work of art in its own right. While that artist may have used another artist's idea or concept, this is not a copyright infringement.

See below for what's considered covered (same gov circular 40)

MORAL RIGHTS FOR VISUAL ARTISTS
For certain one-of-a-kind visual art and numbered limited editions of 200 or fewer copies, authors are accorded rights of attribution and integrity. The right of attribution ensures that artists are correctly identified with the works of art they create and that they are not identified with works created by others. The right of integrity allows artists to protect their works against modifications and destructions that are prejudicial to the artists’ honor or reputation. These rights may not be transferred by the author, but they may be waived in a written instrument. Transfer of the physical copy of a work of visual art or of the copyright does not affect the moral rights accorded to the author.



WORKS OF THE VISUAL ARTS
Copyright protects original “pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works,” which include two-dimensional and three dimensional works of fine, graphic, and applied art. The following is a list of examples of such works:1

Advertisements, commercial prints, labels
Artificial flowers and plants
Artwork applied to clothing or to other useful articles
Bumper stickers, decals, stickers
Cartographic works, such as maps, globes, relief models
1Copyright protection extends to the design of a building created for the use of human beings. Architectural works created on or after Dec.1, 1990, or that on Dec. 1, 1990, were either unconstructed or embodied only in unpublished plans or drawings are eligible. For registration of architectural works, use Form VA. Request Circular 41, “Copyright Claims in Architectural Works,” for more information.

Cartoons, comic strips
Collages
Dolls, toys
Drawings, paintings, murals
Enamel works
Fabric, floor, and wallcovering designs
Games, puzzles
Greeting cards, postcards, stationery
Holograms, computer and laser artwork
Jewelry designs
Models
Mosaics
Needlework and craft kits
Original prints, such as engravings, etchings, serigraphs, silk screen prints, woodblock prints
Patterns for sewing, knitting, crochet, needlework
Photographs, photomontages
Posters
Record jacket artwork or photography
Relief and intaglio prints
Reproductions, such as lithographs, collotypes
Sculpture, such as carvings, ceramics, figurines, maquettes, molds, relief sculptures
Stained glass designs
Stencils, cut-outs
Technical drawings, architectural drawings or plans, blueprints, diagrams, mechanical drawings
Weaving designs, lace designs, tapestries
Copyright protection for an original work of authorship does not extend to the following:

Ideas, concepts, discoveries, principles
Formulas, processes, systems, methods, procedures
Words and short phrases, such as names, titles, and slogans
Familiar symbols or designs
Mere variations of typographic ornamentation, lettering, or coloring

Morgen
12-17-2004, 10:00 PM
But I think the point to remember here - while we digress into artist's rights :) is that in this scenario, that's not going to happen. As Kathy has told us. Whew.

I bring this up only so that artists don't feel like they have no rights with their work. I'm sometimes amazed by what's covered. And sometimes terribly saddened to hear that oversea's copying is extremely hard for artist's to do anything about. :(

Heather
12-17-2004, 10:06 PM
But I think the point to remember here - while we digress into artist's rights :) is that in this scenario, that's not going to happen. As Kathy has told us. Whew.

I bring this up only so that artists don't feel like they have no rights with their work. I'm sometimes amazed by what's covered. And sometimes terribly saddened to hear that oversea's copying is extremely hard for artist's to do anything about. :(:agreed and my comment above that it's wrong and tacky is my opinion of any artist who DOES it, but not specifying any artist. Only those that do it. :lol

HeyMedic
12-17-2004, 11:28 PM
Morgen, I am aware of what can be done these days using modern technology. I assume that you are referring to the process that converts a virtual image into a solid object. This was how I had my leg prostheses fitted last year. Laser scan instead of messy plaster castings. Since this is getting kind of off topic I have posted a link to making fine art copies using marble dust in the "General Off Topic" Forum.



Paul, regarding your answer to MGR, technically it's now possible to make any sized scale exact replica of anything now. My foot for example. Let alone a sculpture -- the method of 'pointing up' is an age old sculpting technique used by masters for many centuries: the would sit in studios making small clay sculptures and their disciples would then 'point them up' into marble sculpture. Here's one fairly homemade type of method: http://www.machinegraphics.com/speedy/enlargement.htmthere are even simpler less exacting methods out there... I would be extremely surprized if the law didn't recognize this centuries old method of copying as still 'copying'. ..?

Regarding the size & Berne law -- I'm fairly sure it does apply here:



See below for what's considered covered (same gov circular 40)

Morgen
12-17-2004, 11:33 PM
Agreed (re: the thread has absolutely nothing to do with the "New Resin by Lermond anymore! :lol) Off to go answer you there..

HeyMedic
12-17-2004, 11:50 PM
ROTLF! :roflmao


Agreed (re: the thread has absolutely nothing to do with the "New Resin by Lermond anymore! :lol) Off to go answer you there..

Sunshine
12-19-2004, 07:48 PM
WHEW!

I had no idea that this long dead thread had now come back to life and reincarnated to boot as a totally different subject!

First of all, coming from the bronze world, I got used to using the term "Pointing up" for sculpting waxes into different sizes. I used this term to describe the hunter Arab resin which was a poor choice of words. When I CM'd the Kuiway resin for Erin Corbett, I did so with the knowledge and blessing of Kathy Bogucki. So many people liked the resulting sculpture, that they begged me to do a Trad sized hunter similar to the one I CM'd. I wasn't planning on taking the SM and duplicating it exactly. He was for inspiration only. I guess using the word prototype was also a poor choice of words, but I thought a prototype was something to be used as a guideline, not necessarily how the end product would look. I should consult a dictionary every time I post so I don't make this mistake again.

The Trad size hunter Arab is only in my head at this point, and will be in a different stride IF I ever do him. I say that IF with a heavy heart, because of all the flack that this thread has generated by some people. As far as copyright infringement goes, I am more sensitive to this that most model horse hobbyists. The reason I started getting back into sculpting four years ago is that I thumbed through the THHN SE and saw a resin which looked like my work but had another well known artist's name on it. This artist works for Breyer and never received my permission to take my work and resculpt it into another edition. To this day, many people do not know this fact, but I felt that you needed to know where I was coming from before you think me capable of doing the same thing to another well known artist.

Kathy and I have been friends since she was knee-high to a grasshopper and I wouldn't do anything to jeopardize that relationship, PERIOD! Because of this, I assured her that the sculpture that I eventually do will not in any way be a ripoff of her work. I hope this settles this thread once and for all and I wish you all...

Happy Holidays!

Debbi :)

wonderwomn
12-19-2004, 09:20 PM
Hey Debbi!

Thanks for being here!

ryllina
12-19-2004, 09:29 PM
Awesome Debbi :D

MGR
12-20-2004, 10:35 AM
Hooray! I am glad everyone's clear on everything. :)

CementRoseStudios
12-25-2004, 05:34 PM
WAAAAAAY off topic, but I had to try and lighten the mood.. ;)


The very nature of their work almost guarantees this. And maybe this is why artists are said to be "temperamental"; because when we talk about their work, we are talking about them... or maybe it's more like talking about their children.

Okay, I have to say I agree with this to a point.. but I think it's more like talking about them (or us? I guess I consider myself an artist.)
I don't have children, but I do have my dogs, and I think talking about me would be more hurtful to me, and talking about them would be more hurtful to someone else.. (Because I'd be beating your @$$ :grin)

kated
12-28-2004, 01:59 PM
I like the body and head I dont like the tail and legs. His feet look a little strange too.

HorseChick
12-29-2004, 07:46 PM
Yes, Stacey, when you responded to Larry's question, you generalized the definition of "cartoonish", but it did start out describing my resins in general. OK, here are the others who started and chimed in with the "cartoonish" label:

MBPearls, KidWitch, Arabian Princess, Red-Dog-Studio, Sunflower Ridge Stables and HorseChick. It is so easy to hide behind anonymity by posting without anyone knowing who you are.

Stacey's was the last post regarding this thought so I posted responding to Stacey. So sorry, Stacey, I didn't mean to single you out so I went to the trouble to add all of the others who put my work down by incorrectly describing it as "cartoonish".

As far as blending art and realism, I am first and foremost an artist. I create art in the form of sculptures for all the world to enjoy. They represent the feelings and emotions within me that I add to the sculptures and still retain the realism aspect. I don't do renderings; I put life into every sculpture that I create. I believe you can do both successfully and that is what commands desire for an artist's work and respect for them in general.

Debbi LerMond
HorseModels.com
Not afraid to sign my full name

First, I want to preface this by saying that I am amazed at how much this thread has grown. I gave my opinion on the model and, quite frankly, forgot about it until it was mentioned in another forum.

I wanted to address Debbi and state that I have never hidden behind anonymity in ANY forum/venue. I always either sign my post or (as is the case here) have my full name in my signature line.

I would further like to say that cartoonish to me meant stylized and exagerated. Arabians have always beeen my favorite breed. When I think of an arab, I picture a smallish horse with a short back and a dished profile and a tail that is hock length. In other words, your run of the mill backyard arab.

I've always thought that Nahar was a very good representation of what an arab (in my head) should look like. ( I even have issues with him in that I don't like his pose) Then Khemosabi came out. Now he is a resin I would love to own and I don't even have any ARs

I will say that my eyes have been opened to what is out there in the show ring. There are some very beautiful arabians in the real horse world. My heart stopped at the photos of Magnum Psyche. Magnificent!

Debbi, your work is artistically very beautiful, and in looking at the photos I have seen, they are very appropriate for todays show ring. I took the time this evening to peruse your website :D

Peace out from another Arabian lover and poodle owner. Ok. Reverse that. I'm owned by a poodle :yes

Sunshine
12-30-2004, 12:34 AM
First, I want to preface this by saying that I am amazed at how much this thread has grown. I gave my opinion on the model and, quite frankly, forgot about it until it was mentioned in another forum.

I wanted to address Debbi and state that I have never hidden behind anonymity in ANY forum/venue. I always either sign my post or (as is the case here) have my full name in my signature line.

I would further like to say that cartoonish to me meant stylized and exagerated. Arabians have always beeen my favorite breed. When I think of an arab, I picture a smallish horse with a short back and a dished profile and a tail that is hock length. In other words, your run of the mill backyard arab.

I've always thought that Nahar was a very good representation of what an arab (in my head) should look like. ( I even have issues with him in that I don't like his pose) Then Khemosabi came out. Now he is a resin I would love to own and I don't even have any ARs

I will say that my eyes have been opened to what is out there in the show ring. There are some very beautiful arabians in the real horse world. My heart stopped at the photos of Magnum Psyche. Magnificent!

Debbi, your work is artistically very beautiful, and in looking at the photos I have seen, they are very appropriate for todays show ring. I took the time this evening to peruse your website :D

Peace out from another Arabian lover and poodle owner. Ok. Reverse that. I'm owned by a poodle :yes
I, too, am amazed at how this thread refuses to die! Just when I think it is over, another fresh post keeps it alive (including my own LOL!). I'm glad to see that you don't try to hide behind anonymity. If your name was attached to your comments early on in this thread, I didn't see it. I know that some people don't care for my Arabs because they don't like the real horses which look like my sculptures as well. I don't expect to please everyone, but I hopefully satisfy a niche out there and make some people really happy. My own real Arab mare, Melody, is a 14.2 hh pudgy little trail horse who doubles for my live model. My latest sculpture, Rasha, is a study of my mare. She is my backyard horse (actually front yard of 5 acres as we live at the back of the property) and hopefully, she will appeal to a different crowd than some of my earlier works. She is still very pretty, but she is not a show conditioned horse by any stretch of the imagination. I will start selling her the first of next week to the people on my mailing list. I hope to have photos of the finished Master Resin by New Years Day up on the Rasha order page. If you are part of my mailing list, you can already view this page or see the WIP piece in the HorseModels gallery.

Take care,

Debbi :)
I too am owned by 2 Toy Red Poodles, Dillon and DJ!

Magnolia Ice
12-30-2004, 10:34 PM
Debbi..no Matter What anyone says I always am and always will be a Die Hard Fan Of your Work...I may not own any now..But In Due Time...I shall :)

Chris Flint
01-03-2005, 10:51 AM
Hey Kate,

Loved your pictures!

I understand your frustration in regards to people NOT understanding Gaited or "high stepping" horses. It's even worse regarding Hackney Pony models! (I know - I have a few on my line...)

I like this sculpture and feel it's a very good representation of a racking ASB! I'd love to get my hands on a couple of them to paint.

~ Chris.